Students accused of rape at university bringing lawyers to hearings
Scroll to see replies
Original post by StriderHort
That bit of semantics was the only part of the debate you felt it worth engaging with? 
It's 'so called' because it's lazy emotive tabloid labelling, like 'lefty lawyers', 'feminazis' and 'immigrant' vermin', it casts a wide net to get you angry, but individuals should be able to recognise these are not helpful terms to throw about for groups, otherwise you end up with those screaming that the uni are 'rape lovers' or whatever for refusing to build a gallows in the atrium.
It's 'so called' because it's lazy emotive tabloid labelling, like 'lefty lawyers', 'feminazis' and 'immigrant' vermin', it casts a wide net to get you angry, but individuals should be able to recognise these are not helpful terms to throw about for groups, otherwise you end up with those screaming that the uni are 'rape lovers' or whatever for refusing to build a gallows in the atrium.
But the reality is, there is a rape problem at uni
Original post by Gina is here
But the reality is, there is a rape problem at uni
No one claimed there wasn't? The thread is discussing how unis address and involve themselves in such complaints and to what extent the accused is or should be allowed to defend themselves. I don't think anyone is claiming these things do not happen.
Randomly, regarding having rape problems, as @Muttley79 alluded to back on page 1, we've made it law that drunk people essentially can't consent, so realistically any uni, college, forces etc with young coming of age students and even the lightest elements of adventure and party culture is going to inevitably result in uncountable technical instances of sexual attack, possibly in the millions every year- we've legislated the issue in such a way that we can never get rid of or solve it.
Original post by StriderHort
No one claimed there wasn't? The thread is discussing how unis address and involve themselves in such complaints and to what extent the accused is or should be allowed to defend themselves. I don't think anyone is claiming these things do not happen.
Randomly, regarding having rape problems, as @Muttley79 alluded to back on page 1, we've made it law that drunk people essentially can't consent, so realistically any uni, college, forces etc with young coming of age students and even the lightest elements of adventure and party culture is going to inevitably result in uncountable technical instances of sexual attack, possibly in the millions every year- we've legislated the issue in such a way that we can never get rid of or solve it.
Randomly, regarding having rape problems, as @Muttley79 alluded to back on page 1, we've made it law that drunk people essentially can't consent, so realistically any uni, college, forces etc with young coming of age students and even the lightest elements of adventure and party culture is going to inevitably result in uncountable technical instances of sexual attack, possibly in the millions every year- we've legislated the issue in such a way that we can never get rid of or solve it.
What does your last paragraph mean please by the result being 'uncountable technical instances of sexual assault'?
'We've legislated the issue' so that 'we can never get rid of or solve it'. What does this mean?
How do you think that legislating differently would 'get rid of' the problem 'or solve it'? The problem here that you refer to is rape?
I don't know much about the legislation in this area but wouldn't it be the case that it is about being inebriated to the extent that the person cannot give consent.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Cote1
What does your last paragraph mean please by the result being 'uncountable technical instances of sexual assault'?
'We've legislated the issue' so that 'we can never get rid of it or solve it'. What does this mean?
I don't know much about the legislation in this area but wouldn't it be the case that it is about being inebriated to the extent that the person cannot give consent.
'We've legislated the issue' so that 'we can never get rid of it or solve it'. What does this mean?
I don't know much about the legislation in this area but wouldn't it be the case that it is about being inebriated to the extent that the person cannot give consent.
I think ( but could be wrong)he’s getting at the fact that the party / alcohol culture of many unis ( especially during freshers week) etc means that at times they are hives of drunken sexual activity between virtual strangers, and as such it could be argued that consent is not valid for many of those encounters, and therefore the girls have been raped.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Euapp
I think he’s getting at the fact that the party / alcohol culture of many unis ( especially during freshers week) etc means that at times they are hives of drunken sexual activity between virtual strangers, and as such it could be argued that consent is not valid for many of those encounters, and therefore the girls have been raped.
Well then wouldn't it be the case that they have been raped if they did not consent.
Surely explicit consent needs to be obtained.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Cote1
Well then they have been raped.
Surely explicit consent needs to be obtained.
Surely explicit consent needs to be obtained.
They have and it does, but I also believe that something needs to be done about this kind of behaviour, and that girls in particular need to have the risks explained to them, because the problem is getting bigger and bigger and the alcohol intake of freshers is not slowing down.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Euapp
They have and it does, but I also believe that something needs to be done about this kind of behaviour, and that girls in particular need to have the risks explained to them, because the problem is getting bigger and bigger and the alcohol intake of freshers is not slowing down.
Yes, I have explained to my daughter the risks involved in all sorts of different situations.
If I had a son I would be explaining it to them too.
I recall in my university fresher days, years ago now, the same issues then.
It's not just alcohol intake. A friend's daughter was spiked with a needle yesterday at a club and is in hospital now.
Whether or not a victim takes further action should be for the victim and only the victim to decide upon.
It should not be at the encouragement of others who feel they know a definition of rape, nor by those who shame victims into believing they should do something about what happened. No one else was there. This is a highly emotive and personal decision.
If there are any doubts about what a victim wants to do, save a sample of wee (for drug rape testing) in a clean receptacle and get in touch with a local SARC as soon as you can. Reporting it at a SARC does not mean a victim has to go through to a police report and it gives a victim breathing space to consider how the emotional grenade they throw into their own life will affect them for the rest of their life.
Once a report is made to the police there is no turning back. The rigorous and often highly intrusive investigatory process will grind on, intrusive physical examinations for both victim and offender, intrusive medical record searches, arrests, and a whole year of your life abstracted waiting and waiting. That is even before it goes to court. So no wonder so many women (and men) decide to put life events down to experience and it absolutely has to be that process because those who make allegations of rape have to understand it is a soul destroying experience.
Expecting Uni's to be judge and jury for those victims who do not wish to take civil or criminal action against an offender is also concerning practice and should not be encouraged. There should be support for both parties. In the same way Social Media can whip up outrage just as witch hunts took place in medieval Britain, Social Media cannot be judge and jury and condemn an innocent man (or woman) guilty just on biased opinion alone. That is why we have criminal and civil courts with Innocent until proven guilty the bedrock of civilised justice.
Social Media would have us believe we all 'own' someone else's complaints and experiences, as do our closest friends. Peer pressure should not encourage someone who has had a bad experience in a sexual encounter to 'do the right thing and report it' Telling someone an action is 'RAPE' and that you should report it does not help someone who has just undergone such an assault. Use a SARC where possible and listen to what the victim wants to do.
It should not be at the encouragement of others who feel they know a definition of rape, nor by those who shame victims into believing they should do something about what happened. No one else was there. This is a highly emotive and personal decision.
If there are any doubts about what a victim wants to do, save a sample of wee (for drug rape testing) in a clean receptacle and get in touch with a local SARC as soon as you can. Reporting it at a SARC does not mean a victim has to go through to a police report and it gives a victim breathing space to consider how the emotional grenade they throw into their own life will affect them for the rest of their life.
Once a report is made to the police there is no turning back. The rigorous and often highly intrusive investigatory process will grind on, intrusive physical examinations for both victim and offender, intrusive medical record searches, arrests, and a whole year of your life abstracted waiting and waiting. That is even before it goes to court. So no wonder so many women (and men) decide to put life events down to experience and it absolutely has to be that process because those who make allegations of rape have to understand it is a soul destroying experience.
Expecting Uni's to be judge and jury for those victims who do not wish to take civil or criminal action against an offender is also concerning practice and should not be encouraged. There should be support for both parties. In the same way Social Media can whip up outrage just as witch hunts took place in medieval Britain, Social Media cannot be judge and jury and condemn an innocent man (or woman) guilty just on biased opinion alone. That is why we have criminal and civil courts with Innocent until proven guilty the bedrock of civilised justice.
Social Media would have us believe we all 'own' someone else's complaints and experiences, as do our closest friends. Peer pressure should not encourage someone who has had a bad experience in a sexual encounter to 'do the right thing and report it' Telling someone an action is 'RAPE' and that you should report it does not help someone who has just undergone such an assault. Use a SARC where possible and listen to what the victim wants to do.
Original post by Cote1
Yes, I have explained to my daughter the risks involved in all sorts of different situations.
If I had a son I would be explaining it to them too.
I recall in my university fresher days, years ago now, the same issues then.
It's not just alcohol intake. A friend's daughter was spiked with a needle yesterday at a club and is in hospital now.
If I had a son I would be explaining it to them too.
I recall in my university fresher days, years ago now, the same issues then.
It's not just alcohol intake. A friend's daughter was spiked with a needle yesterday at a club and is in hospital now.
I have sons and daughters and I think they are all fed up with me going on about it, but I’d rather they get bored by my scratched record than have to suffer something worse.
Spiking is on the rise whether it be via a needle or in a beverage. I hope your friends daughter makes a full recovery. Luckily / unluckily we live in a tourist town where the night life is vibrant so mine have grown up to learn never to accept a drink from a stranger and to never take their eyes off their glass. Better to abandon a drink than to end up drugged, but no one is safe from needles in clubs, so safety in numbers is all I can advocate.
Uni is great but there is a dark side!
Original post by Euapp
I have sons and daughters and I think they are all fed up with me going on about it, but I’d rather they get bored by my scratched record than have to suffer something worse.
Spiking is on the rise whether it be via a needle or in a beverage. I hope your friends daughter makes a full recovery. Luckily / unluckily we live in a tourist town where the night life is vibrant so mine have grown up to learn never to accept a drink from a stranger and to never take their eyes off their glass. Better to abandon a drink than to end up drugged, but no one is safe from needles in clubs, so safety in numbers is all I can advocate.
Uni is great but there is a dark side!
Spiking is on the rise whether it be via a needle or in a beverage. I hope your friends daughter makes a full recovery. Luckily / unluckily we live in a tourist town where the night life is vibrant so mine have grown up to learn never to accept a drink from a stranger and to never take their eyes off their glass. Better to abandon a drink than to end up drugged, but no one is safe from needles in clubs, so safety in numbers is all I can advocate.
Uni is great but there is a dark side!
There certainly is a dark side to university and to clubbing in general.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Cote1
What does your last paragraph mean please by the result being 'uncountable technical instances of sexual assault'?
'We've legislated the issue' so that 'we can never get rid of it or solve it'. What does this mean?
How do you think that legislating differently would 'get rid of the problem or solve it'? The problem here that you refer to is rape?
I don't know much about the legislation in this area but wouldn't it be the case that it is about being inebriated to the extent that the person cannot give consent.
'We've legislated the issue' so that 'we can never get rid of it or solve it'. What does this mean?
How do you think that legislating differently would 'get rid of the problem or solve it'? The problem here that you refer to is rape?
I don't know much about the legislation in this area but wouldn't it be the case that it is about being inebriated to the extent that the person cannot give consent.
Yeah I think I've phrased that opinion badly (and my brain even warned me at the time
) but I suppose in short I'm saying I always had issues with how that seemingly 1 sided and arbitrary intoxicated abuser/abused male/female law works, and the idea that two parties can have sex with the state calling it rape even though neither agree. As @Euapp alludes to, in teen/uni/limit pushing environments these events are almost inevitable. However I'm not about to pretend to understand how that legislation really works or how to solve the issue, I just suspect my standards of what are acceptably intoxicated or how intent is allocated differ from the states.Original post by Cote1
There certainly is a dark side to university and to clubbing in general.
I’ve never liked clubs and much prefer a few friends round a dinner table at home or in a restaurant where I can actually hear what they have to say😂
Original post by StriderHort
Yeah I think I've phrased that opinion badly (and my brain even warned me at the time ) but I suppose in short I'm saying I always had issues with how that seemingly 1 sided and arbitrary intoxicated abuser/abused male/female law works, and the idea that two parties can have sex with the state calling it rape even though neither agree. As @Euapp alludes to, in teen/uni/limit pushing environments these events are almost inevitable. However I'm not about to pretend to understand how that legislation really works or how to solve the issue, I just suspect my standards of what are acceptably intoxicated or how intent is allocated differ from the states.
) but I suppose in short I'm saying I always had issues with how that seemingly 1 sided and arbitrary intoxicated abuser/abused male/female law works, and the idea that two parties can have sex with the state calling it rape even though neither agree. As @Euapp alludes to, in teen/uni/limit pushing environments these events are almost inevitable. However I'm not about to pretend to understand how that legislation really works or how to solve the issue, I just suspect my standards of what are acceptably intoxicated or how intent is allocated differ from the states.I don't agree with what you say or your attitude here. May as well leave it at that.
Original post by Euapp
I’ve never liked clubs and much prefer a few friends round a dinner table at home or in a restaurant where I can actually hear what they have to say😂
I cannot bear clubs.
Original post by StriderHort
Yeah I think I've phrased that opinion badly (and my brain even warned me at the time ) but I suppose in short I'm saying I always had issues with how that seemingly 1 sided and arbitrary intoxicated abuser/abused male/female law works, and the idea that two parties can have sex with the state calling it rape even though neither agree. As @Euapp alludes to, in teen/uni/limit pushing environments these events are almost inevitable. However I'm not about to pretend to understand how that legislation really works or how to solve the issue, I just suspect my standards of what are acceptably intoxicated or how intent is allocated differ from the states.
) but I suppose in short I'm saying I always had issues with how that seemingly 1 sided and arbitrary intoxicated abuser/abused male/female law works, and the idea that two parties can have sex with the state calling it rape even though neither agree. As @Euapp alludes to, in teen/uni/limit pushing environments these events are almost inevitable. However I'm not about to pretend to understand how that legislation really works or how to solve the issue, I just suspect my standards of what are acceptably intoxicated or how intent is allocated differ from the states.I see where you are coming from, but an intoxicated girl, however irresponsible, can not give consent!! A girl who has drunk a glass of wine/ shot of vodka, but knows what she’s up to , shouldn’t be able to scream rape when the guy she wakes up with didn’t come up to scratch. I’m not saying that this latter situation doesn’t occur. Apparently 6% of rape accusations are of this kind, BUT that means 94% are of the first!! I wouldn’t want my son to be falsely accused, but I most definitely wouldn’t want either of my daughters to be a victim. The issue is complicated, and universities are not equipped to deal with it. Courts find it hard enough but that is where the cases should be examined and judged.
Original post by Euapp
I see where you are coming from, but an intoxicated girl, however irresponsible, can not give consent!! A girl who has drunk a glass of wine/ shot of vodka, but knows what she’s up to , shouldn’t be able to scream rape when the guy she wakes up with didn’t come up to scratch. I’m not saying that this latter situation doesn’t occur. Apparently 6% of rape accusations are of this kind, BUT that means 94% are of the first!! I wouldn’t want my son to be falsely accused, but I most definitely wouldn’t want either of my daughters to be a victim. The issue is complicated, and universities are not equipped to deal with it. Courts find it hard enough but that is where the cases should be examined and judged.
That explained it better than I managed to.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Cote1
That explained it better than I managed to.
I had 3 attempts at writing a reply before deciding it was fit to post. A difficult issue to debate.
Original post by Euapp
I had 3 attempts at writing a reply before deciding it was fit to post. A difficult issue to debate.
It is difficult and a number of people would share StriderHort's views.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Euapp
I see where you are coming from, but an intoxicated girl, however irresponsible, can not give consent!! A girl who has drunk a glass of wine/ shot of vodka, but knows what she’s up to , shouldn’t be able to scream rape when the guy she wakes up with didn’t come up to scratch. I’m not saying that this latter situation doesn’t occur. Apparently 6% of rape accusations are of this kind, BUT that means 94% are of the first!! I wouldn’t want my son to be falsely accused, but I most definitely wouldn’t want either of my daughters to be a victim. The issue is complicated, and universities are not equipped to deal with it. Courts find it hard enough but that is where the cases should be examined and judged.
This is true, the sad truth is we would like to say 'everyone knows when someone has had too much of anything and to make sure they are safe and get home ok' but know these common standards are sadly not the universal reality otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I don't mean in anyway to suggest we don't need legislation that covers this.
Original post by Cote1
I don't agree with what you say or your attitude here. May as well leave it at that.
I do regret if I've caused any inadvertent offence and freely accept that I've spoke clumsily on a sensitive topic.
Original post by StriderHort
This is true, the sad truth is we would like to say 'everyone knows when someone has had too much of anything and to make sure they are safe and get home ok' but know these common standards are sadly not the universal reality otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I don't mean in anyway to suggest we don't need legislation that covers this.
I do regret if I've caused any inadvertent offence and freely accept that I've spoke clumsily on a sensitive topic.
I do regret if I've caused any inadvertent offence and freely accept that I've spoke clumsily on a sensitive topic.
Thanks for saying that. You haven't offended me. I can be a bit abrupt sometimes.
(edited 7 months ago)
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- 1,000 students attempt group action against UCL
- Harvey Weinstein’s New York convictions quashed by state’s apex court
- Is it alright if my boyfriend slaps me?
- Want to sue the university
- Will a court acquittal of sexual misconduct effect my ability to work in the NHS?
- Thoughts on Abortion?
- Am I doomed?
- MSt in Practical Ethics
- Disciplinary Meeting
- Did I sexually assault my friend?
- Law
- Graduate LLB or Conversion
- Why do some soldiers rape?
- Law.... is it hard to get a job after?
- Serious Misconduct Hearing
- minor misconduct
- English a-level language investigation! Need Help!
- Does Warwick still have a rape culture?
- At least six killed and several in critical condition after Westfield shopping centre
- Which of these A-Level combinations would be the best to study a law degree?
Latest
Trending
Last reply 5 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 5 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 5 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 5 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
