Students accused of rape at university bringing lawyers to hearings

I have no legal background, however, I assume you are talking about drunken females in your statement above. Perhaps you can help with some of these questions:

Does 'consent' include men giving consent to females to have sex with them because it always seems to sway towards women giving their consent?

What if the drunken party is male and a female initiates sex and they sleep together. Has he been raped?

If a drunken woman can not give consent, does it then follow that every drunken female (regardless of whether they think so or not)that has sex has been raped ?

As we know, rape victims don't necessarily report rape to the police for all sorts of reasons. If I was raped and didn't want to go to the police, I would be wary of telling the university, in case the information was shared with the police. What a horrible situation and an awful topic to discuss.

The downside of this is that the alleged rapist may rape again if not reported to the police.

I wonder if universities do share information on alleged sexual assaults/rape with the police. A very tricky situation for university staff to be in.

This has been discussed above in the thread. It's extremely doubtful that legally all ability to consent is removed by merely being drunk - the issue is more complicated than that and would require evidence, assessment, judgement, etc.

The concept that women can rape men as well, whilst a widespread social media trope spread by activist men, is not backed up by the facts, which show an overwhelming likelihood that rape is something done by men against women.

This has been discussed above in the thread. It's extremely doubtful that legally all ability to consent is removed by merely being drunk - the issue is more complicated than that and would require evidence, assessment, judgement, etc.

The concept that women can rape men as well, whilst a widespread social media trope spread by activist men, is not backed up by the facts, which show an overwhelming likelihood that rape is something done by men against women.

My question has nothing to do with activist men on social media but a genuine question on a subject that is quite complex because sex in itself is usually done in private and the desire for it communicated in various cohesive ways; verbally and in body language and the law can be quite convoluted and complex. We know women are the most vulnerable for obvious reasons and it's only in recent times that victims of assault have begun to have a voice to speak because of reforms in the law. Nevertheless, the progress made opens up more questions. If a woman can say she was 'coerced' into sex whilst drunk, then surely a man can be coerced into sex whilst drunk??? I doubt this happens very often and if it does, people are more likely to say (lucky *******!) than 'you've been raped!'.

Thanks for the explanation. I have lived with the understanding that one was obliged to report a crime.

Yes, my concern is the evolution of universities into courts of law (as alluded to by other members of this thread) esp when they are not trained to execute on those responsibilities.

page 7 on the link below regarding duty to report a crime if you're still interested. in a nutshell, no there's no legal requirement to report an alleged or suspected crime (save from money laundering and suspected acts of terrorism, but i reckoned that wasn't what we were talking about here).

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/sites/default/files/field/downloads/2021-07/guidance-for-higher-education-institutions.pdf

apologies if i missed it, but wdym 'reporting to the University authorities should be part of the reporting scheme that should include the police'. like why does it matter when ultimately the two bodies are concerned with different things?

universities deal with misconduct, ie terms and conditions of the contract; police deal with criminal investigations. i know they look alike but they are not.

for instance: in AB v The University of XYZ (case deciding legal representation) the claimaint (ie the accused) was on a year abroad and signed a 'Study Abroad Student Protocol' which included contractual terms found in the spoiler below:


note - none of these are crimes. report any of this to the police and they will tell you to bugger off and speak to your university.

so a student may have enough evidence to bring a complaint of misconduct to university, but not enough evidence to come close to a criminal conviction. that's partially why they don't do the latter cuz the average person knows it's virtually impossible to get your rape case taken on by cps - 99% of the time reports don't make it (source available upon request). the sexual offences act 2003 is designed to protect the defendant, but that's another conversation.

if you're aware of how virtually certain the cps will not press charges and are hoping this will equate to the student getting out of disciplinary proceedings at uni, well it won't really. the university can still take on disciplinary action cuz the alleged 'offence' will be different, the evidence that can be taken into account may be different, the burden of proof will be different and the available sanctions will be different.

or if the hope is that a report to police might end up in a criminal conviction so to protect the victim and members of the public, that's laughable. that almost never happens. it most definitely rubs salt into the wound of the victim, tho. i'll tell you that for free.

The idea that universities shouldn't conduct these investigations seems baffling to me. In any other organisation it would be a no-brainer that an investigation should take place if someone has been accused of sexual harassment or assault.

Imagine you had been sexually assaulted in the workplace. Would you not want your employer to take you seriously? Would you be fine if the employer said "We won't do anything unless this goes to court and there is a conviction?". I would hate to work for a place like that.

Would you be fine if the employer said "We won't do anything unless this goes to court and there is a conviction?". I would hate to work for a place like that.

The 'useless' systems of the police and CPS are irrelevant.

Parents of students accused of rape at university have started bringing lawyers to hearings, to help them avoid expulsion, reports the Guardian today.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/17/its-a-power-game-students-accused-in-university-hearings-call-in-lawyers

"Prof Sir Steve West, the vice-chancellor of the University of the West of England and president of Universities UK until earlier this year, said: “As expulsion is a penalty, parents of the accused often start to raise the stakes by hiring a lawyer. It is a power game, because usually the victim has no representation, and I think it is completely unacceptable and unfair.” "

This is understandable, but it does imply that things are getting more intense in this area and that the chances of female students being believed and treated respectfully in such circumstances are likely to diminish. Inevitably, some will be put off reporting if they believe they are going to end up being quizzed by a lawyer in a semi-legal setting.

Rape is a horrid crime and one worthy of castration however, liberalism has pushed the corporate world including universities into a situation where even the meer accusation can destroy their brand. It was inevitable that at some point, men would begin to defend themselves.

The idea that universities shouldn't conduct these investigations seems baffling to me. In any other organisation it would be a no-brainer that an investigation should take place if someone has been accused of sexual harassment or assault.

Imagine you had been sexually assaulted in the workplace. Would you not want your employer to take you seriously? Would you be fine if the employer said "We won't do anything unless this goes to court and there is a conviction?". I would hate to work for a place like that.

Do you honestly have confidence and feel comfortable with a system where uni academics & mid to senior level administrative staff who often have zero or very limited legal knowledge and expertise with such sensitive investigations are expected to undertake them?

Particularly the type of uni investigations that will issue written conclusions on whether allegations of serious criminal offences against their students including rape, malicious use of noxious substances or spiking for sexual gratification have occurred.
Generally with scenarios reported to have occurred outside of uni class timetables and off the premises, with no supervision nor involvement of any uni staff.

Any uk workplace that automatically accepts criminal allegations made against a staff member based solely upon a he-said she said/anonymous letter plus whispering campaign type of scenario with no independent proof that any crime has been committed and where there has been no criminal conviction or prior court involvement will be inviting a mountain of very expensive legal claims.
Constructive dismissal, defamation, harassment, victimization etc.

We are talking about a serious sexual assault here. A criminal offence. A university should have well documented policies in place to manage complaints of assault against their student population and those policies should extend to the offender too. But it should be the police who primarily investigate such serious offences.

What should happen in practice is that after a serious sexual assault allegation is received by the university it should be communicated to the police - especially where the offender is employed by them. The circumstances are grounds for considering suspension. This is another grey area where the responsibility of the university toward the victim has a beginning and an end?

What has been discussed is that a university is in danger of taking on the role of judge and jury (and investigating that badly) in cases alleged against employees, staff or students where criminal allegations have been made. A university still needs to have done everything it can to protect others outside of their remit as well as supporting the victim who reported the sexual assault in the first place.

In practice a victim is perfectly quite entitled to go directly to the police to report an allegation of sexual assault. Whilst a victim may not want the university to report their allegation to the police, I would suggest that the university are duty bound to do so (to prevent further crime) What does a victim expect the university to do when they report their allegation to them? I might hate a fellow student and want them off their course? This is worse if the waters are muddied due to drugs or alcohol consumption, coupled with embarrassment or perhaps by not being able to clearly recall all of the salient facts? Is this process right or fair to the alleged offender? The police have far greater powers and far more experience of investigating such matters.

I understand that the Data Protection Act places a greater onus on the university (or employer) of their responsibility to the public in relation to any allegations that have been reported to them.

The 'useless' systems of the police and CPS are irrelevant.

As far as I understand the police can use examples of similar allegations (or like offences) of sexual assault in a raft of evidence against an offender (this is part of the 'group' evidence) This enables a weight of evidence from independent individuals to be used against one offender. A little bit like the 'me too' ground swell. If an individual went to the police making a criminal offence complaint and there was nothing to corroborate their evidence then the case could easily be dismissed by the CPS.

I dunno if I would expect them to kick the person out and slander them as an abuser on my say so either, to me you need a level of evidence and investigation to make that judgement that the uni simply isn't capable of alone.

Like if I was told 'an accusation was made against you and a panel of a professor, a librarian and some rando student think it sounds probable so we are naming you a sexual attacker and expelling you' then your damn right I'd be lawyering up and aiming for that panel.

It does sound like what's needed are regional independent (but university-backed) tribunals at which cases can be heard.

The universities are always hyper-anxious about giving away their independence to other authorities, to the extent that far from encouraging police to get involved, many take the attitude that the police are not welcome on campus and should not be encouraged.