[Official thread] Hamas-Israel Conflict
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Original post by Sorcerer of Old
I mean neither Palestine nor HAMAS are going to defeat Israel and wipe it off the map, and anyone who genuinely thinks so is beyond deluded. So long as Palestinians keep fighting for this fantasy there will continue to be bloodshed, a two-state solution is what's needed.
A policy Isreal is fine with but Palastine is not.
Issue is, the world cannot sit round a table to discuss their issues. For example, the IRA wanted a united independent Ireland while there were disagreements, you can imagine all sides sitting down to discuss this.
Hamas wants the destruction of the state of Israel, their way of life and its people. Its pretty hard to sit at a table with people who want nothing more to see you dead.
Original post by Sorcerer of Old
I mean neither Palestine nor HAMAS are going to defeat Israel and wipe it off the map, and anyone who genuinely thinks so is beyond deluded. So long as Palestinians keep fighting for this fantasy there will continue to be bloodshed, a two-state solution is what's needed.
Realistically a two state solution will never happen, so whether it is in 10 years or 50 or 100, eventually Israel will cease to exist as a state. That doesn't mean Palestine will exist as a nation state but more likely will be absorbed into a pan-Arab/Islamic state.
Original post by Guru Jason
A policy Isreal is fine with but Palastine is not.
Issue is, the world cannot sit round a table to discuss their issues. For example, the IRA wanted a united independent Ireland while there were disagreements, you can imagine all sides sitting down to discuss this.
Hamas wants the destruction of the state of Israel, their way of life and its people. Its pretty hard to sit at a table with people who want nothing more to see you dead.
Issue is, the world cannot sit round a table to discuss their issues. For example, the IRA wanted a united independent Ireland while there were disagreements, you can imagine all sides sitting down to discuss this.
Hamas wants the destruction of the state of Israel, their way of life and its people. Its pretty hard to sit at a table with people who want nothing more to see you dead.
Indeed, well then Hamas will continue to fight and fight in vain. Israel is far bigger and more advanced than Palestine in every way, and on top of that it's currently receiving support from the USA against Hamas. Israel is not going anywhere and I hope one day Hamas and Palestine as a whole can accept this and work towards ending the atrocities and human rights abuses that are occurring in that region and which are perpetrated by both sides.
Original post by Zamestaneh
Realistically a two state solution will never happen, so whether it is in 10 years or 50 or 100, eventually Israel will cease to exist as a state. That doesn't mean Palestine will exist as a nation state but more likely will be absorbed into a pan-Arab/Islamic state.
I don't believe it's likely at all Israel will cease to be a state, it's only been gaining territory for more than 50 years and far outstrips virtually every Arab and Muslim state in the Middle East militarily and technologically, as well as receiving plenty of Western support...
Original post by Guru Jason
The terrorist strikes by hamas is nothing more than that. The same as the terrorist war by russia in ukraine.
I mean, if you want to draw the comparison, you've got the sides mixed up there. Palestine has faced 80 years of oppression, the world has been silent for decades of settler colonialism by Israel. Gaza is basically the world's largest open air prison with how Israel blockades it. Then you get the Israeli prime minister telling Palestinians to leave the strip before he reduces it to rubble, while the Israeli military continues to murder anyone who approaches the border and the defence minister states: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly". (Violating the Geneva convention there)
This is brazenly a genocide perpetrated by Israel, and you want to compare their victims to Russia??
Original post by Sorcerer of Old
I don't believe it's likely at all Israel will cease to be a state, it's only been gaining territory for more than 50 years and far outstrips virtually every Arab and Muslim state in the Middle East militarily and technologically, as well as receiving plenty of Western support...
Western support is the only thing that gives it strength, otherwise due to sheer numbers it would be overwhelmed by the Arab world. Only it's nuclear deterrent might give it a shot at life assuming that the surrounding nations weren't willing to take the risk
Original post by Zamestaneh
Western support is the only thing that gives it strength, otherwise due to sheer numbers it would be overwhelmed by the Arab world. Only it's nuclear deterrent might give it a shot at life assuming that the surrounding nations weren't willing to take the risk
I think looking at it in terms of sheer numbers isn’t very helpful because that assumes that all other Arab nations are able and willing to employ their armies to invade and overwhelm Israel, which isn’t realistic or likely by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. And if that were the case one could ask why all the Muslim countries haven't already done this?
(edited 12 months ago)
Original post by Zamestaneh
Etc
Bunch of photos without context. Okay what's your point?
Original post by Guru Jason
Bunch of photos without context. Okay what's your point?
You're reaction is sufficient to show the world
(edited 12 months ago)
Does anyone here really think that if the Palestinians had access to the same military superiority as Israel does that Israel would currently exist?
Not saying I condone everything Israel has done through the years, and their current government isn't exactly ideal, but I'd struggle to name a more Westernised country in the Middle East.
Whereas Hamas are little better than ISIS, certainly judging by the recent terrorist attacks.
Not saying I condone everything Israel has done through the years, and their current government isn't exactly ideal, but I'd struggle to name a more Westernised country in the Middle East.
Whereas Hamas are little better than ISIS, certainly judging by the recent terrorist attacks.
Original post by Barbu
Calling Israelis "colonials" is a joke. Bore off.
Colonising of the West Bank by people not native to the West Bank on occupied land makes them colonialists.
Even though the argument can be made, I am not even mentioning the fact that Israelis have not, on the most part, been native to the region for many hundreds of years, just as Romani Gypsies do not have a right to expel north Indians and claim the land as their own.
What is happening in the West Bank is colonialism by building settlements, displacing locals, diverting natural resources away from natives to thes settlements, etc, on land internationally recognised as not belonging to Israel.
Perpetuate antisemitic colonialism against Palestinians by denying its existence all you want, but it doesn't change the fact it exists.
Original post by Tempest II
Does anyone here really think that if the Palestinians had access to the same military superiority as Israel does that Israel would currently exist?
Not saying I condone everything Israel has done through the years, and their current government isn't exactly ideal, but I'd struggle to name a more Westernised country in the Middle East.
Whereas Hamas are little better than ISIS, certainly judging by the recent terrorist attacks.
Not saying I condone everything Israel has done through the years, and their current government isn't exactly ideal, but I'd struggle to name a more Westernised country in the Middle East.
Whereas Hamas are little better than ISIS, certainly judging by the recent terrorist attacks.
Why does "Westernised" mean "better"? You are basically advocating colonialism by saying "our system is better and more civilised than their system so it is okay to displace the locals". Neo-colonialism is a disease.
Hamas did not exist till Israel existed, and Jews were sheltered on the most part by the Muslims in Muslim majority lands throughout history because of the Western expulsions, pogroms and oppression they faced in Europe. The West drove the Jews out and now want to pretend they are the bastions of civlity. It is only because of the wedges created by Western imperialism such as dividing the Arab world, supporting dictators, shadow ops, creating and supporting Israel etc, that a hostile environment now exists for Jews in the Middle East
(edited 12 months ago)
Original post by Barbu
Calling Israelis "colonials" is a joke. Bore off.
Can you elucidate on this?
Ideally with reference to the multiple waves of external migration that occurred either side of the formal foundation of Israel and with reference to the Israeli settler movement that specifically seeks to occupy land currently controlled by Palestinians.
I look forward to your erudite response.
Original post by Zamestaneh
Why does "Westernised" mean "better"? You are basically advocating colonialism by saying "our system is better and more civilised than their system so it is okay to displace the locals". Neo-colonialism is a disease.
Hamas did not exist till Israel existed, and Jews were sheltered on the most part by the Muslims in Muslim majority lands throughout history because of the Western expulsions, pogroms and oppression they faced in Europe. The West drove the Jews out and now want to pretend they are the bastions of civlity. It is only because of the wedges created by Western imperialism such as dividing the Arab world, supporting dictators, shadow ops, creating and supporting Israel etc, that a hostile environment now exists for Jews in the Middle East
Hamas did not exist till Israel existed, and Jews were sheltered on the most part by the Muslims in Muslim majority lands throughout history because of the Western expulsions, pogroms and oppression they faced in Europe. The West drove the Jews out and now want to pretend they are the bastions of civlity. It is only because of the wedges created by Western imperialism such as dividing the Arab world, supporting dictators, shadow ops, creating and supporting Israel etc, that a hostile environment now exists for Jews in the Middle East
If you're going to quote me then answer the question - would Israel still exist if Palestine had the former's military superiority? I suspect you know that answer. There have been multiple instances, such as in 1967 and 1973 where the moment the nations around Israel believed they had military superiority, they attacked.
Extremist religion is a disease, which is unfortunately still rampant throughout the Middle East. Israel, despite being a Jewish state, is far more democratic, progressive and secular than most, if not all, of the Middle East.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-jews-ultraorthodox-judaism-religion-haredi-682c0b6d7bb833e806065f01ea72e299
I'm not an authority on the matter either, and usually I stay far away from this debate. It is too complex and would be far too time consuming for me to do a good job of it. However, I've not seen even any semblance of proof that Israel at any point barged into Palestine in order to deliberately target and kidnap civilians and then parade a corpse of a naked girl with broken legs through their streets.
If someone can show me proof of that, perhaps I'll change my mind. Were there skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, where more Palestinians got hurt as a result of collateral damage? I'm sure there were. This is not the same as deliberately targeting civilians, however.
Other things I've seen: videos of kids (10 to 18 in age) in Palestine crowding around the cars with hostages in them, chanting "Allah Hu Akbar". What sort of damned culture brainwashes and raises their kids to take part in events like this? Wtf. This doesn't inspire any sympathy in me either.
If someone can show me proof of that, perhaps I'll change my mind. Were there skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, where more Palestinians got hurt as a result of collateral damage? I'm sure there were. This is not the same as deliberately targeting civilians, however.
Other things I've seen: videos of kids (10 to 18 in age) in Palestine crowding around the cars with hostages in them, chanting "Allah Hu Akbar". What sort of damned culture brainwashes and raises their kids to take part in events like this? Wtf. This doesn't inspire any sympathy in me either.
(edited 12 months ago)
Original post by NonIndigenous
What sort of damned culture brainwashes and raises their kids to take part in events like this?
Regretfully parts of Scotland, a significant portion of people really get their kids started early on extreme sectarianism here, so although abhorrent, the idea isn't too strange to me.
Original post by NonIndigenous
I'm not an authority on the matter either, and usually I stay far away from this debate. It is too complex and would be far too time consuming for me to do a good job of it. However, I've not seen even any semblance of proof that Israel at any point barged into Palestine in order to deliberately target and kidnap civilians and then parade a corpse of a naked girl with broken legs through their streets.
If someone can show me proof of that, perhaps I'll change my mind. Were there skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, where more Palestinians got hurt as a result of collateral damage? I'm sure there were. This is not the same as deliberately targeting civilians, however.
Other things I've seen: videos of kids (10 to 18 in age) in Palestine crowding around the cars with hostages in them, chanting "Allah Hu Akbar". What sort of damned culture brainwashes and raises their kids to take part in events like this? Wtf. This doesn't inspire any sympathy in me either.
If someone can show me proof of that, perhaps I'll change my mind. Were there skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, where more Palestinians got hurt as a result of collateral damage? I'm sure there were. This is not the same as deliberately targeting civilians, however.
Other things I've seen: videos of kids (10 to 18 in age) in Palestine crowding around the cars with hostages in them, chanting "Allah Hu Akbar". What sort of damned culture brainwashes and raises their kids to take part in events like this? Wtf. This doesn't inspire any sympathy in me either.
If you grew up in a concentration camp, were bombed, had your loved ones killed, had food, water and electricity cut off, basic necessities cut off, constantly fearing death or poverty, then naturally a child who is raised broken from birth will see the world around them in a broken way and act as such.
Their behaviour is just another symptom of the Israeli problem.
Original post by TheStupidMoon
this hamas attack?
I saw protests for some reason against Benjamin Netanyah a month or two ago. I read it was about judicial reforms but why were people getting so upset that they were on the streets about it and who do they represent?
There was even some recently.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-protests-netanyahus-arrive-in-middle-of-the-night-for-golan-heights-vacation/
I saw protests for some reason against Benjamin Netanyah a month or two ago. I read it was about judicial reforms but why were people getting so upset that they were on the streets about it and who do they represent?
There was even some recently.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-protests-netanyahus-arrive-in-middle-of-the-night-for-golan-heights-vacation/
In my opinion these issues will not be resolved in our lifetimes, these are arch enermies the ethnic tension is unbelieveable. Frankly its some Medieval wars getting waged so a total war would mean millions of death (these terrorist killing 3-4K people isn't a big deal) the americans are broke and hanging onto their country means hoping lets not have to fight. The americans are chicken **** if they have to face either China or Russia lol Ultimately, this is a middle east issue not a european one. Don't forget in the early to late 60's millions of Vietnamese and indians prior were treated by Americans as cannon fodders, the same is sad for Arab muslims during these 20 years when the West has been involved in killing and displacing million throughout the middle east. It's already having consequences till this day. This is the most messed up things thats ever happened frankly.
What is actually happening in Isreal and what are the causes/history behind it? I have seen the headlines but thought rather than trying to piece together I would ask someone with good knowledge..
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