Shamima Begum was made a scapegoat – we would welcome her back, say Bethnal Green res

Original post by Rakas21

We can't be sure that she would be tried for a sufficient terror/treason charge. So no, despite my belief that she should return to face justice, in practice I suspect we would be too soft.

Begum was a vile traitor who living in a market democracy made a choice to join a foreign proto state bent on military expansion and theocracy.

Frankly, I would like to see her tried for aiding terrorism and by extension treason. If there was justice in the world, she would be given the death penalty for the people her terrorist husband killed.

Who was the husband proven to kill? It would be unreasonable bordering draconian to demand a death sentence by association without irrefutable proof surely?

Reply 24

Rakas21

Original post by StriderHort

Who was the husband proven to kill? It would be unreasonable bordering draconian to demand a death sentence by association without irrefutable proof surely?

He admitted in a recent interview to partaking in a battle. That's solid intent to kill, it's also arguable given the aim of the group that we have even more evidence of such a willingness.

Sadly, the husband will only serve 6 years of returned to the Netherlands.

Reply 25

Groomed or not its no excuse for the atrocities she partook in and supported. I see literally no reason she should be allowed back at all. Conversely, i see no reason the Kurds should be being pressured to look after any of them..

Reply 26

StriderHort

Original post by Rakas21

He admitted in a recent interview to partaking in a battle. That's solid intent to kill, it's also arguable given the aim of the group that we have even more evidence of such a willingness.

Sadly, the husband will only serve 6 years of returned to the Netherlands.

Nah c'mon you need proof of death, you can't just assume based on circumstance especially when seeking the ultimate sentence. That's properly ridiculous and I think you know that

Like if you think it's ok to execute people based on a kangeroo court of assumption, are you really any better than ISIS executing people after kangeroo courts or the Shamima's that go to watch? after all you'd be front and centre for her getting hanged.

Reply 27

Gazpacho.

11

Good opinion piece by Jacob Rees-Mogg on Begum. Amazed that I just wrote that sentence.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-shouldnt-have-lost-her-british-citizenship/

Reply 28

Rakas21

Original post by StriderHort

Nah c'mon you need proof of death, you can't just assume based on circumstance especially when seeking the ultimate sentence. That's properly ridiculous and I think you know that

Like if you think it's ok to execute people based on a kangeroo court of assumption, are you really any better than ISIS executing people after kangeroo courts or the Shamima's that go to watch? after all you'd be front and centre for her getting hanged.

It's important to note that the husband is a Dutch national so it's not us that would be trying him but regardless, we do have an admission that he joined a foreign terrorist group who explicitly hate the west and and consider us their enemy. That for me is sufficient to warrant a charge of treason and advocate his removal from the species.

Granted the law is currently too soft and that's why I hope he does not return to the Netherlands or Begum, the UK.

I believe in justice and a fair trial. If they were to be executed, she'd have the right to legal defense. I'm not suggesting that we drone strike her in absentia.

(edited 2 months ago)

Reply 29

Original post by StriderHort

Nah c'mon you need proof of death, you can't just assume based on circumstance especially when seeking the ultimate sentence. That's properly ridiculous and I think you know that

Like if you think it's ok to execute people based on a kangeroo court of assumption, are you really any better than ISIS executing people after kangeroo courts or the Shamima's that go to watch? after all you'd be front and centre for her getting hanged.

In fairness it’s basic legal practice, you don’t need physical proof, merely beyond reasonable doubt. No bodies ever need be produced.
In her case, it’s been admitted, corroborated and can accurately be assumed. She ran off to join and live with a terror group, of all things. There’s literally no defence for her crimes

Reply 30

StriderHort

Universities Forum Helper

Original post by Napp

In fairness it’s basic legal practice, you don’t need physical proof, merely beyond reasonable doubt. No bodies ever need be produced.
In her case, it’s been admitted, corroborated and can accurately be assumed. She ran off to join and live with a terror group, of all things. There’s literally no defence for her crimes

You mean for a death sentence for killing (and even being associated with such a person) it's standard practice not to need any evidence of anyone being actually killed beyond 'well they might have...'

I'm no lawyer but that logic sounds decidedly funky. You want to hit her with charges of treason or joining terrorists fine, but a death sentence over 'killings' feels a bit bit trumped up and hyperbolic with no further evidence. It sounds just like someone wants it to be true.

Reply 31

Admit-One

Original post by User_name001

It’s pathetic how TSR have not even moderated this yet alone closed this type of thread

Have you used the report button on the first post and explained what forum rule you think it's breaking?

I suspect asking for it to be closed is going to go nowhere, as by your logic virtually no topic can be discussed if it involves human beings as they will all have friends and family.

Reply 32

Genesiss

Original post by User_name001

Yes think of her family. No they didn’t fail in her parenting. Your saying at the time a 15/16 year old to be mature that’s crazy of you to even say that people wrongly get influenced, and your acting as though humans don’t come with flaws and mistakes that’s absolutely pathetic, as a developed adult now where she is I’m sure she would be realising her mistake deeply and deep down too with regret.

It’s pathetic how TSR have not even moderated this yet alone closed this type of thread

she’s done numerous media interviews since 2019, the times, sky news, bbc, giving her story looking for public support/sympathy so not like begum is hiding from the media hoping we won’t talk about her; she wants people to know who she is. if she wanted to be inconspicuous she'd decline interviews.

anyway, if you're on team begum you should want people talking about her; when enough of the public expresses its disapproval of the status quo governments/legislation change, theoretically anyway.

to the rest of your note, you can’t get influenced into terrorism unless you already possess similar values and a questionably moral framework. no, doesn't take maturity to know terrorism is bad. mass rape bad. beheadings bad. think when schoolteacher Samuel Paty was beheaded in france for showing drawings that children and teenagers couldn't understand that was bad? sure they could, unless they were terrorist sympathisers.

people get wrongly influenced - yeah smoke weed, cut class. not join islamic fundamentalist terrorism. surely takes a certain person to start researching how to join isis, cuz they don't advertise on youtube or ring you doorbell like jehovah's witnesses, nor do they troll r/askaliberal, /gaymuslim or /freetommyrobinson. begum had to be active on certain platforms demonstrating same values, things she should know by default are inherently wrong cuz they are taught at home and at her mosque. not like she was raised in a country where terrorism is normalised.

Reply 33

Saracen's Fez

For the record, there's nothing wrong with having this discussion provided it's had on the topic in the OP and complies with the Community Guidelines.

Reply 34

Original post by StriderHort

You mean for a death sentence for killing (and even being associated with such a person) it's standard practice not to need any evidence of anyone being actually killed beyond 'well they might have...'

I'm no lawyer but that logic sounds decidedly funky. You want to hit her with charges of treason or joining terrorists fine, but a death sentence over 'killings' feels a bit bit trumped up and hyperbolic with no further evidence. It sounds just like someone wants it to be true.

I suggest you read up on the law. A physical body is not required to find someone guilty. After all, by your logic someone could bve seen incinerating someone to leave nothing ergo they must be innocent as 'no body no crime'. That is not how our justice system works. Equally, i never said a single thing about mere suspicion or innuendo being the only thing needed. That being said, are you not aware of the concept of joint enterprise?

Anyway, i didn't say i wanted to hit her with any charges. I merely said she has no right to British citizenship and protection and the Kurds shouldn't have to deal with her. Her atrocities were committed in their territory and if they deem the death penalty apt, who are we to judge that?

Reply 35

Entertainment Forum Helper, Debate & Current Affairs Helper

Original post by User_name001

Yeah but think about her family for a moment some sign of respect needs to be shown

Think of all the families whose lives were destroyed by her groups actions, a group she actively supported.

Reply 36

Andrew97

Entertainment Forum Helper, Debate & Current Affairs Helper

Original post by User_name001

Yeah but think about her family for a moment some sign of respect needs to be shown

It’s being discussed everywhere, they are hardly going to notice some student site

Reply 37

Andrew97