Anti-Zionism = Anti Semitism

amelia.x

If you weren't talking about 1948 then you aren't talking about the creation of the State of Israel. I assume you must be arguing Israel shouldn't exist because of human rights violations? If that is the case surely China, Iran, Russia, US, UK and many many others shouldn't be allowed to exist. Again, I ask, why are you singling out Israel?

I never said Israel shouldn't exist. I said that the actions of the Israeli government recently have been brutal and nonsensical. I support Israel in that I think Jews have an equal right to the land as Muslims. I am against Israel similarly because they think Jews have more of a right to the land as Muslims. Zionism means an exclusive Jewish state, that is no other religions allowed.

Being anti-Zionist is therefore rather unlike being anti-Semitic.

Reply 22

amelia.x

The reply I got was that the reason Israel's existence is questioned and not Iran, for example, was that Israel was created by militant means. I have shown this was not the case.

Israel has a right to exist. A Zionist state does not.

Reply 23

OP

rockrunride

I never said Israel shouldn't exist. I said that the actions of the Israeli government recently have been brutal and nonsensical. I support Israel in that I think Jews have an equal right to the land as Muslims. I am against Israel similarly because they think Jews have more of a right to the land as Muslims. Zionism means an exclusive Jewish state, that is no other religions allowed.

Being anti-Zionist is therefore rather unlike being anti-Semitic.

That's b0ll0cks mate, and you know it.

You are not anti-Zionist (from your posts; I don't really know you) as like I said anybody is free to voice negative views of the government. Israelis bitch about their government every day. Doesn't make them anti-Zionist.

Reply 24

OP

rockrunride

Israel has a right to exist. A Zionist state does not.

A zionist state just means one for the Jewish people, which is what Israel is. This does not necessarily exclude any other people, and in fact Israel is a secular western country.

Compare this to Lebanon where Jews aren't allowed to become citizens. Why are you not saying Lebanon (a State only for Muslims and Christians) does not have a right to exist? Do you not see your own hypocrisy?

Reply 25

amelia.x

That's b0ll0cks mate, and you know it.

You are not anti-Zionist (from your posts; I don't really know you) as like I said anybody is free to voice negative views of the government. Israelis bitch about their government every day. Doesn't make them anti-Zionist.

Yes I am anti-Zionist, because I believe that: there should be a two-state solution where the religions are kept separate, or one with both religions living side-by-side, which is less likely. Zionism seeks to create one state with an entirely Jewish population.

And you haven't specified on the anti-government bitching, that could be anything. If an individual bitches about their government occupying the West Bank, for example, there is enough evidence to say that they are anti-Zionist.

Reply 26

amelia.x

A zionist state just means one for the Jewish people, which is what Israel is. This does not necessarily exclude any other people, and in fact Israel is a secular western country.

Compare this to Lebanon where Jews aren't allowed to become citizens. Why are you not saying Lebanon (a State only for Muslims and Christians) does not have a right to exist? Do you not see your own hypocrisy?

I believe that Lebanese policy is admittedly harsh, but is consequential of the strained relations between Israel and Lebanon.

Reply 27

OP

rockrunride

Yes I am anti-Zionist, because I believe that: there should be a two-state solution where the religions are kept separate, or one with both religions living side-by-side, which is less likely. Zionism seeks to create one state with an entirely Jewish population.

And you haven't specified on the anti-government bitching, that could be anything. If an individual bitches about their government occupying the West Bank, for example, there is enough evidence to say that they are anti-Zionist.

No, the two-state solution is not incompatible with Zionism as one of the states will be for Jews. I am a Zionist and strongly support 2 states.

Secondly, I am a Zionist and don't approve of the occupation of the West Bank. I would like all settlers and soldiers to leave, as Israel did in Gaza. However, as you saw from Gaza, when Israel withdrew its soldiers, Hamas started firing rockets at Israeli cities. Israel can't afford the same to happen if it withdraws from the West Bank (as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem will be in range of the missiles).

Reply 28

amelia.x

No, the two-state solution is not incompatible with Zionism as one of the states will be for Jews. I am a Zionist and strongly support 2 states.

Secondly, I am a Zionist and don't approve of the occupation of the West Bank. I would like all settlers and soldiers to leave, as Israel did in Gaza. However, as you saw from Gaza, when Israel withdrew its soldiers, Hamas started firing rockets at Israeli cities. Israel can't afford the same to happen if it withdraws from the West Bank (as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem will be in range of the missiles).

Darn it, shame they invaded the West Bank in the first place..

Reply 29

OP

rockrunride

I believe that Lebanese policy is admittedly harsh, but is consequential of the strained relations between Israel and Lebanon.

Oh so you do feel it is acceptable for Lebanon to be an entirely racist state (no citizenship for Jews at all) but it is not acceptable for Israel? Muslims in Israel comprise 20% of the population and are citizens, vote and run for election and are basically normal citizens of the state. They are entitled to exactly as much pension, healthcare and education as Jews in Israel.

It's this double standards that makes anti-Zionism inherently racist and unfair.

Reply 30

i-Citizen

rockrunride; dont even bother mate, your not going to get anywhere, go bed and get some sleep.

basically the way I see it is this, if you say anything against Zionism or Israels war crimes, constant bombardment of Palestinian borders, propaganda etc you automatically are labelled as anti-semitic, which is not the case but hey ho.

I have nothing against Jews, but I do have a problem against powerful and influential Jews who want a one state solution simply because a stupid text (validity?) told them so that it is their land...if that makes me anti-semitic then YES i am... :s-smilie:

Reply 31

OP

rockrunride

Darn it, shame they invaded the West Bank in the first place..

The West Bank was invaded in a strategic move to beat the Jordanians during the Six Day War, again initiated by Arab aggressors.
Anyhow, the fact of the matter is the WB cannot be returned now due to the threat of rocket fire. 100% of the West Bank was offered by Rabin to Arafat in the Oslo Accords. What did Arafat choose? Intifadah.

Reply 32

OP

i-Citizen

rockrunride; dont even bother mate, your not going to get anywhere, go bed and get some sleep.

basically the way I see it is this, if you say anything against Zionism or Israels war crimes, constant bombardment of Palestinian borders, propaganda etc you automatically are labelled as anti-semitic, which is not the case but hey ho.

I have nothing against Jews, but I do have a problem against powerful and influential Jews who want a one state solution simply because a stupid text (validity?) told them so that it is their land...if that makes me anti-semitic then YES i am... :s-smilie:

Israel is a secular country and always has been. Israel has always strived for a two-state solution, read up on the Oslo Accords for more info. Israel offered the West Bank, the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem for peace. Israel has always offered painful concessions for peace, including giving away the oil rich Sinai Peninsula (larger than the whole of present Israel) for peace with Egypt.

Your argument connected to religion is dead in the water; Israel has and never will be run by religious nutcases.

Reply 33

amelia.x

Oh so you do feel it is acceptable for Lebanon to be an entirely racist state (no citizenship for Jews at all) but it is not acceptable for Israel? Muslims in Israel comprise 20% of the population and are citizens, vote and run for election and are basically normal citizens of the state. They are entitled to exactly as much pension, healthcare and education as Jews in Israel.

It's this double standards that makes anti-Zionism inherently racist and unfair.

No, I don't. However it was reactionary policy to Israel's atrocities, so you can understand their position.

Reply 34

JJ1

rockrunride

Yes I am anti-Zionist, because I believe that: there should be a two-state solution where the religions are kept separate, or one with both religions living side-by-side, which is less likely. Zionism seeks to create one state with an entirely Jewish population.

And you haven't specified on the anti-government bitching, that could be anything. If an individual bitches about their government occupying the West Bank, for example, there is enough evidence to say that they are anti-Zionist.

You have literally no idea about what zionism aims for or what it has actually done.

Zionists believe that jews should have a homeland, ideally in their historic homeland, israel. The movement is primarily secular, and the vast majority of zionists are not concerned about having all the land, or whatever, as is demonstrated by the fact that the majority of israelis, zionists living in a zionist state, support a two state solution.

In practice zionists have demonstrated that they do not require a jew only state, in fact leading zionists have repeatedly demonstrated the opposite. The jewish leadership during the civil war and war of independence in 1948 called several times on the arabs to stay, rather than leave the country, most notably regarding haifa and jaffa, and the israeli declaration of independence (drafted by most of the leading zionists of the day) specifically granted the arabs equal rights and invited them to stay. In the modern day, arab citizens of israel are not distinguishable from jews in the eyes of the law.

The zionists seem perfectly happy for there to be two states, both with mixed populations.
The arabs (or at least their leadership) have demonstrated that they want one state, ideally with no jews (although the moderates seem willing to accept a powerless jewish minority)

To say you think israel should exist but a zionist state should not is obviously contradictory.

I think you need to look at zionism and zionists without prejudice; there is really nothing scary about zionism. It is just the same as other national movements seeking self determination, like the pakistanis, or many national groups in europe (although actually some of those were much more scary lol)

Reply 35

OP

rockrunride

No, I don't. However it was reactionary policy to Israel's atrocities, so you can understand their position.

No I can't.
Anyway you would be able to understand if Israel denied citizenship to all Muslims considering the pain they've caused over the years, including over 2000 innocent deaths in suicide bombings since the second Intifadah alone. However Muslims are still welcomed into Israeli society, and Israel is STILL called a racist country, with Zionism being a racist ideology! How does that work?

Reply 36

amelia.x

The West Bank was invaded in a strategic move to beat the Jordanians during the Six Day War, again initiated by Arab aggressors.
Anyhow, the fact of the matter is the WB cannot be returned now due to the threat of rocket fire. 100% of the West Bank was offered by Rabin to Arafat in the Oslo Accords. What did Arafat choose? Intifadah.

Hang on, iirc the Intifada was an uprising; Arafat declared no war.

Reply 37

JJ1

rockrunride

Hang on, iirc the Intifada was an uprising; Arafat declared no war.

The first intifada was obviously a popular movement to some extent, but arafat had been attempting to organise rebellion and terrorism in the territories for years before (he had been unsuccessful becuase the palestinians were having so much a better time under israel than they had had under the jordanians and their was no support for violence). The second intifada was almost certainly initiated by arafat, and even his own communications minister admitted it.

Reply 38

OP

rockrunride

Hang on, iirc the Intifada was an uprising; Arafat declared no war.

Palestinians consider the Second Intifada to be a part of their ongoing struggle for national liberation, justice, and an end to Israeli occupation,[25] whereas many Israelis consider it to be a "wave of Palestinian terrorism" instigated and pre-planned by then Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.[26][27]

Immediate background of the Second Intifada

The Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David from July 11 to July 25, 2000 took place between United States President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. It failed with both sides blaming the other for the failure of the talks. There were four principal obstacles to agreement: territory, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, refugees and the 'right of return', and Israeli security concerns.

Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian parliament postponed the planned September 13, 2000 declaration of statehood for an independent Palestinian state.[23]

On September 27 Sergeant David Biri of the Israeli Defense Forces was critically injured in a bomb attack near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip. He died the next day.[14][15][17]

Reply 39