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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/holyrood/the-gloves-are-coming-off-in-the-referendum-battle-1.187491

Maturestudent36? Midlander? Good Bloke? Scots issues left for those living in Scotland I see...

England and Wales are part of the union and want Scots to stay, as odd as that may seem.

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Reply 5641

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Psyk

I think he's completely correct. Scotland isn't a country in any sense that is relevant to international law. Isn't that what this whole independence thing is about?

I always thought it was about a group of under achievers who'd convinced themselves that North Sea oil would make them rich for doing nothing.

Reply 5642

L i b

19

Original post by cowsforsale

Watch Douglas Alexander squirm his way out of guaranteeing more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote..

Vote YES!

This, of course, being Danny Alexander who supports considerable more powers for the Scottish Parliament and whose party have affirmed precisely what those powers should be? This being Danny Alexander who is presiding over a government which is giving the greatest devolution of fiscal powers in history to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a no vote?

In any case, I sincerely doubt that anyone cares. People would reject Scottish nationalism even if the three main pro-union parties weren't pledged to reviewing the powers of Holyrood. Hell, only a small minority could actually tell you with any degree of accuracy what those powers are.

You're on to a loser there, I'm afraid. Add it to the list of things like Trident, papers by Gavin McCrone and the "Bedroom Tax" that normal people don't give half as much of a toss about as you do.

Reply 5643

Midlander

19

Original post by cowsforsale

[video="youtube_share;rRipP5VhgZ0"]http://youtu.be/rRipP5VhgZ0?t=7m44s[/video]

Watch Douglas Alexander squirm his way out of guaranteeing more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote..

Vote YES!

Scotland has more powers for itself than England.

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Reply 5644

Midlander

19

Original post by L i b

This, of course, being Danny Alexander who supports considerable more powers for the Scottish Parliament and whose party have affirmed precisely what those powers should be? This being Danny Alexander who is presiding over a government which is giving the greatest devolution of fiscal powers in history to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a no vote?

In any case, I sincerely doubt that anyone cares. People would reject Scottish nationalism even if the three main pro-union parties weren't pledged to reviewing the powers of Holyrood. Hell, only a small minority could actually tell you with any degree of accuracy what those powers are.

You're on to a loser there, I'm afraid. Add it to the list of things like Trident, papers by Gavin McCrone and the "Bedroom Tax" that normal people don't give half as much of a toss about as you do.

Douglas Alexander, the Labour MP...

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Reply 5645

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Midlander

England and Wales are part of the union and want Scots to stay, as odd as that may seem.

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Northern Ireland?

Reply 5646

Midlander

19

Original post by MatureStudent36

Northern Ireland?

The phone lines mentioned in the article were specifically based in England and Wales. Support for the union is, as I mentioned a number of pages back, high in Northern Ireland, which is the only constituent to receive more in public spending than Scotland, and rather than threaten to leave, it is that commitment from the UK government which keeps support for the union even among the Catholic community there.

Reply 5647

L i b

19

Original post by Midlander

Douglas Alexander, the Labour MP...

Ah, feck.

Well, that'll be Labour, who sat on the Calman Commission extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament, who brought about devolution in the first place, blah blah blah. In either way, it's a bloody daft thing to attack with.

Reply 5648

Midlander

19

Original post by L i b

Ah, feck.

Well, that'll be Labour, who sat on the Calman Commission extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament, who brought about devolution in the first place, blah blah blah. In either way, it's a bloody daft thing to attack with.

I find it odd that the government Scotland voted for for 13 years is, in the SNP's eyes, no better than the present coalition. When a government which most Scots voted for wrecks the economy and causes the present hardships which the present government is attempting to fix (the classic Labour-Tory cycle), but because that consists of the Tories, they're evil too.

A worrying number of Scots are basing an extremely important decision based on who is in power now. 55% of Scots did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections but are lumbered with them anyway-that is just how democracy works sometimes and is not worth abandoning the union for.

Reply 5649

Good bloke

19

Original post by 1tartanarmy

Thats just wrong. Go find a source to your claims before talking nonsense.

Which part do you think is wrong?

Actually the UK is a sovereign state

True. I wouldn't think even you would disagree with that obvious fact.

made up several dozen local authorities

True. Surely you won't argue with that?

some of which operate three different legal environment

True. Three separate legal systems in NI, Scotland and England & Wales. Still with me?

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are no more countries, as far as the rest of the world is concerned than Yorkshire is

True. Name any country which recognises Scotland or England as sovereign states.

And the Isle of Man has a claim to statehood at least as valid as any of the individual home nations, including Scotland

Again, true. The Isle of Man, as an independent crown dependency, has more autonomy than any of the others. Its parliament (the oldest continually existing ruling body in the world) has authority for all domestic matters. Scotland's doesn't (and neither do the elected bodies of Wales and Northern Ireland), and England doesn't even have such an elected body. The Island is in neither the Commonwealth nor the EU.

Perhaps you could let me know where I went wrong and why I deserve such opprobrium from you for pointing out plain facts.

Reply 5650

Good bloke

19

Original post by cowsforsale

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/holyrood/the-gloves-are-coming-off-in-the-referendum-battle-1.187491

Maturestudent36? Midlander? Good Bloke? Scots issues left for those living in Scotland I see...

It is nothing to do with me, though I don't really see what you are complaining about. If the No campaign wishes to spend money getting non-Scots to tell Scots how much they want Scotland to stay that seems an entirely legitimate message. Whether it is useful is another matter.

Perhaps the Yes campaign will bring Norwegians over to tell Scots what life with higher taxes and spending can be like. They can ask them about the cost of beer and other alcoholic drinks over there, how they like 25% VAT (15% on food). And they can ask them why they pay so much tax when they have an oil wealth fund, that economic panacea.

Reply 5651

1tartanarmy

10

Original post by MatureStudent36

Well Wikipedia states that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

The UN seems to think that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://www.un.org/en/members/

The EU seems to think that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-5000500.htm#fn-tw1

The world bank seems to think the UK is the sovereign state.

http://data.worldbank.org/about/country-classifications/country-and-lending-groups

Care to show me your source for where the UK is t the sovereign state?

I have said on multiple occassions that the UK is a sovereign state. You have wasted your time.

What I was sayinh was that England and Scotland are countries.

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Reply 5652

1tartanarmy

10

Original post by MatureStudent36

I always thought it was about a group of under achievers who'd convinced themselves that North Sea oil would make them rich for doing nothing.

For our population size we have given the world a hell of a lot.

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Reply 5653

1tartanarmy

10

Original post by Psyk

I think he's completely correct. Scotland isn't a country in any sense that is relevant to international law. Isn't that what this whole independence thing is about?

Since when are countries defined by what other people think and others laws?

If scots say we are a country, then we are.

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Reply 5654

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by 1tartanarmy

For our population size we have given the world a hell of a lot.

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Agreed, but most of that was delivered in the union. And lets not forget the contribution of the English, welsh and Irish be it the republic or northern.

I'm very proud of the inventions of Fleming and Byrd and the work they did south of the border on penecillin and televison. im sure that they were equally proud of their scottish and british roots (I'm not aware either of them were fervent nationalists)

.I'm equally proud of whittles and his jet engine, and Berners Lee and his Internet involvement.

Please try not to align the work of great mean and women to your narrow minded outlook on life unless you can demonstrate their narrow minded outlook on life.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 5655

Psyk

16

Original post by 1tartanarmy

Since when are countries defined by what other people think and others laws?

If scots say we are a country, then we are.

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I agree that Scotland is a country because Scottish people (as well as other British people) say it is one. I'm just saying it's a fairly arbitrary label that is little more than an expression of how people feel. It doesn't have any bearing on whether Scotland should be independent, other than being a roundabout way of saying that some people in Scotland want it to be independent.

Reply 5656

Midlander

19

Original post by MatureStudent36

Agreed, but most of that was delivered in the union. And lets not forget the contribution of the English, welsh and Irish be it the republic or northern.

I'm very proud of the inventions of Fleming and Byrd and the work they did south of the border on penecillin and televison. im sure that they were equally proud of their scottish and british roots (I'm not aware either of them were fervent nationalists)

.I'm equally proud of whittles and his jet engine, and Berners Lee and his Internet involvement.

Please try not to align the work of great mean and women to your narrow minded outlook on life unless you can demonstrate their narrow minded outlook on life.

Ah yes, Frank Whittle, born and bred in Coventry. Tested his jet engine 5 minutes from my mum's house.

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Reply 5657

Cryptographic

18

Original post by 1tartanarmy

Since when are countries defined by what other people think and others laws?

If scots say we are a country, then we are.

BS. There are no criterions to actually be a country. The accepted formation of a country is when the vast majority of the world agree that it is a country. Anyway, have you had the problem with your anus fixed? I can still see it typing.