"Brexit means more political control": Here's a reality check

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ib_hopeful
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What material control do I have over UK politicians that I don't have over EU politicians?

The idea that my personal levers are any more in control of UK politics than EU politics is silly.

No govt will ever reflect your personal views. Not UK, not EU, not if you're PM.

Politics is a depressing grown up reality of compromise.

but "Brexit means more political control".

Hm.

You couldn't get uniform views in one pub. 1 in 65m UK or 1 in 500m EU,

politics=compromise and collaboration

Not this each-man-for-himself business spouted by some Leavers.

Allow me to remind you;

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
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Phoebe Buffay
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Here's a reality check.

When people talk about Brexit taking back control, they do not mean for themselves, or the voter but for parliament. The European Communities act of 1972 ensures the supremacy of EU law over UK law.
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drogon
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
Here's a reality check.

When people talk about Brexit taking back control, they do not mean for themselves, or the voter but for parliament. The European Communities act of 1972 ensures the supremacy of EU law over UK law.
Yes and parliament is totally going to be acting in accordance with the public interest as they always do.
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Trapz99
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(Original post by drogon)
Yes and parliament is totally going to be acting in accordance with the public interest as they always do.
They do most of the time.
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Phoebe Buffay
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(Original post by drogon)
Yes and parliament is totally going to be acting in accordance with the public interest as they always do.
What are you saying? Does that justify adding another layer of even less representative government?
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EuanF
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Erm, government will reflect my personal views.
I can write to my MP, meet them, have them fight my corner in Parliament.
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drogon
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
What are you saying? Does that justify adding another layer of even less representative government?
It's not "another layer". These laws only seem to be upsetting the UKIP MEPs who don't even turn up half the time to the european parliament. Ever since the general election they've managed to create a stigma to it. They have not upset anyone and the only people who are so upset take sovereignty up as such a massive issue.
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drogon
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(Original post by EuanF)
Erm, government will reflect my personal views.
I can write to my MP, meet them, have them fight my corner in Parliament.
No they won't but I love how optimistic you are
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ib_hopeful
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(Original post by drogon)
It's not "another layer". These laws only seem to be upsetting the UKIP MEPs who don't even turn up half the time to the european parliament. Ever since the general election they've managed to create a stigma to it. They have not upset anyone and the only people who are so upset take sovereignty up as such a massive issue.
Well said!
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EuanF
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(Original post by drogon)
No they won't but I love how optimistic you are
Do you know what redress of grievance is?
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Phoebe Buffay
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(Original post by drogon)
It's not "another layer". These laws only seem to be upsetting the UKIP MEPs who don't even turn up half the time to the european parliament. Ever since the general election they've managed to create a stigma to it. They have not upset anyone and the only people who are so upset take sovereignty up as such a massive issue.
It is exactly another layer.

And what you said is not true.The laws made in Brussels affect each of us, for better or for worse. It limits the ability of Westminster politicians to effectively govern this country. And that is a deeply upsetting thing for many people here. Wait and see.

(Original post by ib_hopeful)
Well said!

You need your eyes tested.
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drogon
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(Original post by EuanF)
Do you know what redress of grievance is?
It's just another entitlement to keep the right wing satisfied and reassured that the government aren't taking away their freedom. If you think your voice is that important then think again because frankly MPs will say anything to stay in power in their respective constituencies. Besides I doubt you will. Have you written to your MP ever? Have you written about how sad you are that people in Brussels write our laws?
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EuanF
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(Original post by drogon)
It's just another entitlement to keep the right wing satisfied and reassured that the government aren't taking away their freedom. If you think your voice is that important then think again because frankly MPs will say anything to stay in power in their respective constituencies. Besides I doubt you will. Have you written to your MP ever? Have you written about how sad you are that people in Brussels write our laws?
I've written to my MP several times on a range of issues from the constituency to the nation and had personally written replies every time.

What do you mean, "It's just another entitlement to keep the right wing satisfied", do you know how old redress of grievance is?
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drogon
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
It is exactly another layer.

And what you said is not true.The laws made in Brussels affect each of us, for better or for worse. It limits the ability of Westminster politicians to effectively govern this country. And that is a deeply upsetting thing for many people here. Wait and see.
Okay so they affect us. But there isn't some massive conspiracy that they're out to get us. They make laws within both our interests and business' interests. The laws that don't go our favour ironically passively favours us.

What exactly is upsetting? That one undemocratic parliament is making our laws instead of another? As i said, it's a stigma that UKIP created because it was hardly ever a worry before.
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ODES_PDES
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I get a feeling that the remainers are losing their nerve
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Phoebe Buffay
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(Original post by drogon)
It's just another entitlement to keep the right wing satisfied and reassured that the government aren't taking away their freedom.

The right to petition in this country goes back to historical documents like the Magna Carta. Do you just try to frame everything to support your opinions?


(Original post by drogon)
If you think your voice is that important then think again because frankly MPs will say anything to stay in power in their respective constituencies. Besides I doubt you will. Have you written to your MP ever? Have you written about how sad you are that people in Brussels write our laws?
Just because you haven't doesn't mean others do not. People do write to their MPs, and MPs hold meetings with their constituencies.
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EuanF
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(Original post by drogon)
Okay so they affect us. But there isn't some massive conspiracy that they're out to get us. They make laws within both our interests and business' interests. The laws that don't go our favour ironically passively favours us.

What exactly is upsetting? That one undemocratic parliament is making our laws instead of another? As i said, it's a stigma that UKIP created because it was hardly ever a worry before.
The Common Fisheries Policy is a perfect EU example of laws that harm us and are manipulated against us by other members states (Primarly in the case of the CFP, France and Spain)
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drogon
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
Just because you haven't doesn't mean others do not. People do write to their MPs, and MPs hold meetings with their constituencies.
So you're telling that all or even most of the brexit voters have written to their MPs? Nah. As i said, it's just a stigma. If these people weren't following a deceitful campaign and looked at the full picture they wouldn't care. A fisherman or a farmer has got a valid reason for them personally to leave. The rest are like a bunch of football fan yobs. Haven't a clue what the situation is.
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drogon
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(Original post by EuanF)
The Common Fisheries Policy is a perfect EU example of laws that harm us and are manipulated against us by other members states (Primarly in the case of the CFP, France and Spain)
Well you've taken possibly the most controversial policy which does skew the situation a little. Even then people argue it actually has benefitted us.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-eu...uk-fisheries-0

People make quick judgements when they look at the surface of it. That's problem. People don't listen.
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Phoebe Buffay
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(Original post by drogon)
Okay so they affect us. But there isn't some massive conspiracy that they're out to get us. They make laws within both our interests and business' interests. The laws that don't go our favour ironically passively favours us.
Why do you state this as fact? Many people including myself do not accept this.

(Original post by drogon)
What exactly is upsetting? That one undemocratic parliament is making our laws instead of another? As i said, it's a stigma that UKIP created because it was hardly ever a worry before.
Yes. The first step is to leave the EU. The next is to reform the government in this country.

And you keep talking about ukip. There is more to this than ukip. The eu polls indicate a 50 50 split for the referendum. Millions more people will vote to leave than would have voted ukip in may.

There is also a sense in this country of politicians in this country ceding power to the EU without proper public consultation.
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