My take on ISIS and why we should STOP PRETENDING

Original post by I feel myself

More people die in Africa due to famine and hunger each day but we don't give af about them but as soon as there's a terrorist related attack, killing a dozen people or so, we pretend like we really care.

We "pretend" we care? I do care. It is terrible and tragic to see 80 people, including young children ffs, mowed down by a truck for reasons of hatred and terroristic bigotry. Other causes of death are also tragic, but they do not occur in those huge numbers (like 130 in a single night in Paris last year, or 3000 in a single morning in New York and DC in 2001).

If we didn't tackle the terrorism issue it would be far worse and we would have many more attacks. It's only because we have taken it seriously that we've managed to really keep a lid on the problem and lock up people who are planning these atrocities.

What is wrong with all you stupid people? Why don't you donate to try and help famine in third world countries

It's possible to walk and chew gum. The UK government spends more on international development aid than counterterrorism.

and try and help things that really matter rather than posting sh*t about ISIS, of which little can be done about them

Actually a lot can be done. We are currently engaged in a campaign assisting our brave Kurdish and Iraqi allies to destroy their base in Iraq and Syria. Our police and security agencies are working around the clock to investigate, surveil and foil plots by terrorists in this country (and over 2,000 terrorists planning attacks have been convicted and imprisoned since 2001; imagine if they had been allowed to run riot and not dealt with)

We are doing a lot about the ISIS problem, and it is right that we do it. Terrorism is unique as a crime because it seeks to fundamentally undermine our free, democratic, political system. It seeks to kill our citizens simply because they are British/French/American, simply because they are Jewish, simply because they are gay... simply because they believe in freedom and tolerance and humanism, and the terrorists believe in death and nihilism. It seems you believe in nihilism too and death of our fellow citizens doesn't worry you that much

Reply 82

Original post by QE2

And why aren't any other religious or ethnic groups who feel that they are being oppressed or offended, carrying out mass killings against random Westerners? Why mostly Muslims? And why do they often cite Islamic ideology as motivation and justification?

So true. There are many well educated, wealthy and privileged people who become members of ISIS. There is a doctor from Australia, a young, successful, well-educated, physically attractive guy who left his work as a doctor in a Western country to go and work for a genocidal organisation.

It's ludicrous to claim that the reason ISIS slaughters, rapes and enslaves the Kurds, suicide bombs Shi'a mosques and mows down people in gay clubs in Florida because they have been 'oppressed by Western imperialism'.

I don't have any time for people who push that idea; it is patently false and a clear justification for acts that can have no justification in reason or logic.

Reply 83

Original post by S.c.d

According to this logic, no organisation can ever be responsible for anything done by any of its members. ever. irrespective of the doctrine.

Is this true?

Good point. Words and ideas have consequences. If you preach everyday at someone who is already very devout Muslim that the evil kuffar are the enemies of all true Muslims, if you tell them that all "real" Muslims must do whatever they can to attack Westerners, if you spend months persuading them that all heathens are deserving of death, then it's not a coincidence when they strap on a suicide belt and blow themselves up in a crowd of Shi'a/Kurds/Westerners etc.

And the tenets of Islam itself push many of these ideas. It might be true that many people don't interpret the "death to the kuffar" verses literally these days, but the verses are still there and it is very easy for someone to convince a devout, conservative Muslim that the words mean what they say.

If 1 billion people follow a religion which has verses that call for people who don't follow the religion to convert or die, it is entirely predictable that some people will take those verses at face value particularly when it is also an undeniable tenet of the religion that the book is the pure and unadulterated word of god

Reply 84

Original post by WBZ144

When they were just murdering and enslaving Brown people in Iraq and Syria, few cared.

That's an arrogant and somewhat racist comment (why do leftists always talk about "brown people", it's so nasty).

We went in to help the Iraqis and Kurds fight off ISIS before ISIS started terrorist attacks against the West. We did it because it was the right thing to do, the Iraqi government was close to falling to ISIS.

In fact, the very first event that provoked us to start bombing ISIS in 2014 was when ISIS attacked the Kurdish city of Sinjar and drove all its people up onto the mountain. They surrounded the mountain and started tightening the noose and something like 10,000 Kurds were going to be slaughtered. We then sent in fighter-bombers which destroyed the ISIS trucks and vehicles and units which were surrounding the Kurds; we destroyed those units and the people were saved.

That was a good thing to do, and we did it because we didn't want to see the Kurds (our friends and allies) killed by these ISIS thugs.

Often you people on the left are extremely cynical in a way that you think is really worldly and sophisticated, but actually it's just very ignorant and uneducated because your position has to be predicated on lack of knowledge. Your comments about us hating "brown people" and not caring if they live or die, which you obviously think makes you really sophisticated and knowing, comes from your total lack of knowledge of how our intervention against ISIS started and how we saved the Kurds at Sinjar from being completely slaughtered

Reply 85

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

there really is no adequate room to interpret the texts in that manner.

That is only a valid assertion if there was some "true" and objective interpretation against which the "false" interpretations could be judged. In reality, it's all made up so no interpretation is more valid than any other.

The fact is that those verses exist, and in a religion that says the Quran is the unadulterated word of god, it is not unreasonable (in the religious sense) for people to interpret them according to what they actually say

Reply 86

KingBradly

1

Original post by I feel myself

More people die in Africa due to famine and hunger each day but we don't give af about them but as soon as there's a terrorist related attack, killing a dozen people or so, we pretend like we really care.

What is wrong with all you stupid people? Why don't you donate to try and help famine in third world countries and try and help things that really matter rather than posting sh*t about ISIS, of which little can be done about them

Hmm yes and why don't we also build a machine that can feel an infinite amount of happiness so that we don't have to deal with any of these problems?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 87

KingBradly

1

Original post by AlexanderHam

That's an arrogant and somewhat racist comment (why do leftists always talk about "brown people", it's so nasty).

We went in to help the Iraqis and Kurds fight off ISIS before ISIS started terrorist attacks against the West. We did it because it was the right thing to do, the Iraqi government was close to falling to ISIS.

In fact, the very first event that provoked us to start bombing ISIS in 2014 was when ISIS attacked the Kurdish city of Sinjar and drove all its people up onto the mountain. They surrounded the mountain and started tightening the noose and something like 10,000 Kurds were going to be slaughtered. We then sent in fighter-bombers which destroyed the ISIS trucks and vehicles and units which were surrounding the Kurds; we destroyed those units and the people were saved.

That was a good thing to do, and we did it because we didn't want to see the Kurds (our friends and allies) killed by these ISIS thugs.

Often you people on the left are extremely cynical in a way that you think is really worldly and sophisticated, but actually it's just very ignorant and uneducated because your position has to be predicated on lack of knowledge. Your comments about us hating "brown people" and not caring if they live or die, which you obviously think makes you really sophisticated and knowing, comes from your total lack of knowledge of how our intervention against ISIS started and how we saved the Kurds at Sinjar from being completely slaughtered

Fantastic point, and very succinctly articulated. It's common that people who have little knowledge will be very cynical because they think it makes them seem sceptical and discerning, when in reality they're hiding their ignorance. If someone does not grow out of this kind of behavior by the age of about 18, then usually they're fairly stupid.

Reply 88

username471863

Original post by AlexanderHam

That's an arrogant and somewhat racist comment (why do leftists always talk about "brown people", it's so nasty).

We went in to help the Iraqis and Kurds fight off ISIS before ISIS started terrorist attacks against the West. We did it because it was the right thing to do, the Iraqi government was close to falling to ISIS.

In fact, the very first event that provoked us to start bombing ISIS in 2014 was when ISIS attacked the Kurdish city of Sinjar and drove all its people up onto the mountain. They surrounded the mountain and started tightening the noose and something like 10,000 Kurds were going to be slaughtered. We then sent in fighter-bombers which destroyed the ISIS trucks and vehicles and units which were surrounding the Kurds; we destroyed those units and the people were saved.

That was a good thing to do, and we did it because we didn't want to see the Kurds (our friends and allies) killed by these ISIS thugs.

Often you people on the left are extremely cynical in a way that you think is really worldly and sophisticated, but actually it's just very ignorant and uneducated because your position has to be predicated on lack of knowledge. Your comments about us hating "brown people" and not caring if they live or die, which you obviously think makes you really sophisticated and knowing, comes from your total lack of knowledge of how our intervention against ISIS started and how we saved the Kurds at Sinjar from being completely slaughtered

It's sarcasm, which reflects the mentalities of many people and is further reinforced in this thread, what with some people proclaiming that terrorism happening "over there" is no big deal because it is "expected". It could be worse; at least this time it is not "nuke them all". It is very naive to assume that your average Westerner cares about what happens to the average Iraqi family being affected by this turmoil.

Some claim that saying "Black people" is offensive and racist, I have never felt this way. It doesn’t give you some sort of credibility boost to get offended on the behalf of others. Why does the right-wing pretend to care about certain people when it comes to things like military intervention, because they think it makes themselves look like heroes? But when it comes to inciting the hateful rhetoric that these people should be deported, barred from entry, given tests/ID cards to determine their "loyalty" and so forth, they are all for it and all for voting for candidates who suggest it?

As for whether the US government and allies care, again it is very naive to presume that countries ever intervene in other countries because it the good/right thing to do. I am well aware of the circumstances of the 2014 intervention but for one thing, a Da'esh linked attack had already happened in Belgium, so it is reasonable to consider the possibility that their attacks could extend to other Western countries. For another, if Da'esh made significant gains, that would be disastrous to US interests in Iraq and would eventually spread to other countries in which she has an interest. There is a reason why the US is very selective when it comes to the conflicts in which she intervenes. Bloodshed and civil war does not only happen in the Middle East. In fact, the longest civil war in history is still being completely ignored, even though it has claimed more lives and continues to do so.

Reply 89

Original post by QE2

So how does this apply to the 9/11 attackers, or 7/7, or the Bali bombing, or the Dhaka attack, or Orlando?

Why do educated, comfortable British, American, Indonesian, Bangladeshi, etc, Muslims hate ordinary Westerners?

And why aren't any other religious or ethnic groups who feel that they are being oppressed or offended, carrying out mass killings against random Westerners? Why mostly Muslims? And why do they often cite Islamic ideology as motivation and justification?

Genuinly interested in your response.
("Not True Muslims", etc is not a legitimate response, BTW)

Omar Mateen:

"At a young age, Mateen displayed an interest in violence, the Associated Press and The Washington Post reported. For his elementary and middle school education, he attended classes in St. Lucie County, Florida. While at Mariposa Elementary, a third grade teacher wrote that Mateen was "very active ... constantly moving, verbally abusive, rude, aggressive ... much talk about violence & sex ... hands all over the place – on other children, in his mouth". In the seventh grade, Mateen was moved to a separate class with the purpose of avoiding "conflicts with other students" and suffered from poor scholarly performance due to "many instances of behavioral problems".^[8]^"
Seems the Orlando shooter was predisposed to violence for a long time, I won't speculate on the cause, but it seems Islam isn't responsible here.

If you want to talk about the 9/11 hijackers, you need to look as to why they became jihadists in the first place, these guys are different to what we see nowadays - experienced jihadists/militants and not lone wolves. If you look at one of the hijackers:
"Mihdhar was born in Saudi Arabia and fought in the Bosnian War during the 1990s. In early 1999, he traveled to Afghanistan where, as an experienced and respected jihadist, he was selected by Osama bin Laden to participate in the attacks. Mihdhar arrived in California with fellow hijacker Nawaf al-Hazmi in January 2000, after traveling to Malaysia for the Kuala Lumpur al-Qaeda Summit. At this point, the CIA was aware of Mihdhar, and he was photographed in Malaysia with another al-Qaeda member who was involved in the USS Cole bombing. The CIA did not inform the FBI when it learned that Mihdhar and Hazmi had entered the United States, and Mihdhar was not placed on any watchlists until late August 2001."It seems that the Bosnian war could primarily be responsible for radicalising this individual. But it also says later that very little is known about his early life. But evidently a sudden desire to help Islam did not cause this person to become a jihadist.

For one perpetrator of 7/7:
"In the later half of 2003, Hussain met Mohammed Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer. The three frequented the Stratford Street mosque in Beeston, and were also intimately associated with the Hamara Youth Access Point, a drop-in centre for teens. Hussain was cautioned by police for shoplifting in 2004.^[^{citation needed}^]"
This guy was clearly radicalised by another individual, and possibly catalysed by committing petty crime and being pursued by the authorities.The original person responsible for this radicalisation is Mohammad Sidique Khan:Born in St James's University Hospital, Leeds, Khan grew up in Beeston but moved to Lees Holm in Dewsbury, near Leeds in early 2005.^[2] His father, Tika Khan, a foundry worker, was born inPakistan. His mother is Mamida Begum.^[2] He received his secondary education at South Leeds High School, formerly the Matthew Murray High School, which was also attended by Hasib Hussain, 7 July bus bomber.^[2]In 1999 he came under the influence of radical cleric Abdullah el-Faisal.^[3]This is clear in pinpointing Abdullah el-Faisal as the source.
El-Faisal was born in Saint James Parish to an evangelical Christian family which belonged to the Salvation Army church, a Christiandenomination.^[9]^[10] He grew up in the small farming village of Point, about 14 miles (23 km) from the city of Montego Bay, in upper St. James, Jamaica.^[11]^[12]^[13] He attended Springfield All-Age, then Maldon Primary and Junior High. At age 16, he converted to Islam,^[14]^[15] after being introduced to the religion by a teacher at Maldon High School.^[10]

El-Faisal was a Christian convert to Islam, this alone could explain it, but later on in the article, it is mentioned that he divorced his wife. This pinpoints the cause as a mix of family disputes and Christianity. Islam is clearly something that this guy learned in later life and exploited it / found comfort in it and warped it to extremity to satisfy the anger deriving from hatred for his Christian family and divorcing his wife. A heart-filled desire to help Islam is not the cause here.

And the picture goes on.

Find me ONE incident where the perpetrator commits an attack solely because of Islamic beliefs, with no evidence of family problems, existential crises, being arrested, losing jobs or being radicalised by war.

And you're making a pretty dumb assumption that these guys hate us, when clearly its just a tiny amount. For those who do, they hate us because they see the British and American governments as responsible for destabilising the Middle East and murdering innocent people.

And its mostly Muslims because of the fact that Islam is situated in the areas which have had brutal regimes that have led to war, civil unrest - both of which catalyse hatred and radicalise these impressionable people.

Reply 90

mrahim

15

Do you really think a bunch of desert retards on horses have the skills to carry out a war like this? There's bigger issues at play here.

Reply 91

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Where are you plucking your beliefs from? You just fabricated these ideas in your head to fit your narrative, right? Because they could not be more inaccurate

I love how you guys cry about me being incorrect but never muster the capacity to explain why. You're dumber than most year 8 students in this country if you can't explain a simple point.

Reply 92

QE2

20

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

x

So you now claim that such actions are not simply because of geo-political upheaval, but also because of ideological radicalisation.

I completely agree.

Reply 93

Original post by QE2

So you now claim that such actions are not simply because of geo-political upheaval, but also because of ideological radicalisation.

I completely agree.

Ideological radicalisation which is a consequence of non-religious factors.

A normal person doesn't suddenly turn violent without something going wrong in their lives.

Reply 94

Betelgeuse-

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

I love how you guys cry about me being incorrect but never muster the capacity to explain why. You're dumber than most year 8 students in this country if you can't explain a simple point.

I muster the capacity to explain why hundreds of times. Frankly i am fatigued by having to bang home my arguments time and time again to each naive and ignorant 15 year old that posts something similar to yours. Your post is so ridiculously uninformed and I am not going to bother because it would take me hours just to correct the innacuracies, like trying to teach a 3 day old baby to walk, talk, sing, swim and play professional football . Too much output

Reply 95

Original post by Betelgeuse-

I muster the capacity to explain why hundreds of times. Frankly i am fatigued by having to bang home my arguments time and time again to each naive and ignorant 15 year old that posts something similar to yours. Your post is so ridiculously uninformed and I am not going to bother because it would take me hours just to correct the innacuracies, like trying to teach a 3 day old baby to walk, talk, sing, swim and play professional football . Too much output

do you honestly expect me to ever read any of the offensive ignorant nonsense you post ever again? lmfao

its clear that you're incapable of criticising my argument without some unwarranted personal attack, goodbye.

Reply 96

Betelgeuse-

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

Ideological radicalisation which is a consequence of non-religious factors.

A normal person doesn't suddenly turn violent without something going wrong in their lives.

Why are there not thousands of terror attacks from atheists?
Or Buddhists?
Or Mormons?
Or Sikhs?

I mean i tentatively assume you agree that things go wrong in these peoples lives...?

Reply 97

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Why are there not thousands of terror attacks from atheists?
Or Buddhists?
Or Mormons?
Or Sikhs?

I mean i tentatively assume you agree that things go wrong in these peoples lives...?

because atheists aren't gathered in mass under one or several excessively unstable political regimes

same applies for the other groups

but not sure why I'm even replying to you when clearly all you like to talk about is how anyone who disagrees with you is 15.

Reply 98

mrahim

15

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Why are there not thousands of terror attacks from atheists?
Or Buddhists?
Or Mormons?
Or Sikhs?

I mean i tentatively assume you agree that things go wrong in these peoples lives...?

buddhists kill bengalis in myanmar all the time.

Reply 99

Betelgeuse-