Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
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NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#2321
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#2321
(Original post by Midlander)
Northern Ireland was formed out of a desire for those living in Ulster to stay in the union. It's just as plausible that other parts of Scotland would wish to do the same.


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It's not going to be needed as the SNP are going to loose hands down. Even if the partitioned the country, oil is in Lib Dem territory.


My only concern now is how much unnecessary internal conflict the SNP have created long term with their myopic, divisional, navel gazing claiming to speak for all of us.
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Kj91
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
It's not going to be needed as the SNP are going to loose hands down. Even if the partitioned the country, oil is in Lib Dem territory.


My only concern now is how much unnecessary internal conflict the SNP have created long term with their myopic, divisional, navel gazing claiming to speak for all of us.
Please explain what you mean by this? Are you referring to the situation that if Shetland and Orkney wanted to remain with the U.K instead of an independent scotland. That the U.K will have a claim to Scottish oil? Why do you assume that the oil belongs to the Shetland islands and assume they will want to remain with the U.K in the event that Scottish independence was voted for?
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FinalMH
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(Original post by Kj91)
Please explain what you mean by this? Are you referring to the situation that if Shetland and Orkney wanted to remain with the U.K instead of an independent scotland.

That the U.K will have a claim to Scottish oil? Why do you assume that the oil belongs to the Shetland islands and assume they will want to remain with the U.K in the event that Scottish independence was voted for?
:confused: "Why do you assume that the oil belongs to the Shetland islands?" Its not really assumption if the oil is in their territorial waters.

" assume they will want to remain with the U.K in the event that Scottish independence was voted for?" Surely the inverse would be true? You're assuming that they want to remain part of Scotland. For all we know they may want to be independent themselves.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Kj91)
Please explain what you mean by this? Are you referring to the situation that if Shetland and Orkney wanted to remain with the U.K instead of an independent scotland. That the U.K will have a claim to Scottish oil? Why do you assume that the oil belongs to the Shetland islands and assume they will want to remain with the U.K in the event that Scottish independence was voted for?
The issue had been raised about partition due to voting trends. That means the more densely populated areas of southern Scotland and the Shetlands wanting to stay within the UK.
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Kj91
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The issue had been raised about partition due to voting trends. That means the more densely populated areas of southern Scotland and the Shetlands wanting to stay within the UK.
You say the oil is in Lib Dem territory? If Shetland opted to remain with rUK they would only have island enclave status under International Maritime law ie 12 miles sea boundary which does not include any oil fields. It would be Scotlands oil not the Shetlands.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Kj91)
You say the oil is in Lib Dem territory? If Shetland opted to remain with rUK they would only have island enclave status under International Maritime law ie 12 miles sea boundary which does not include any oil fields. It would be Scotlands oil not the Shetlands.

You seem to forget that the majority of us wish to remain in the Uk. the SnP have only achieved a heady 6 seats in scottish constituencies.
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freddy2222
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(Original post by Midlander)
Northern Ireland was formed out of a desire for those living in Ulster to stay in the union. It's just as plausible that other parts of Scotland would wish to do the same.


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northern ireland was only formed because a group called the uvf threatened to raise an army of 100,000 men to become traitors...the british government had already granted all of ireland freedom but it knew that its soldiers would not be convinced so easily to kill the uvf rebels...so it had to revise and declare that the north would remain british

if you are suggesting something like that could happen in scotland then you are nuts
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freddy2222
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Why not? And, more likely, why not one in the Orkneys, or Shetland?

My point, though, is that there will always be people in any large selection that aren't getting what they may want in terms of government, no matter what the electoral method is and no matter where the seat of government is. The argument about Scots not getting what they want becasue their views are drowned by the English is not a good one, and only applies while Scotland is, generally, out of step with the rest. It isn't very long ago since Scotland was a sea of blue.
those days are past now and never will we see them again, you could of course say britain was once a sea of yellow...it means nothing


and if you are seriously saying that orkney or shetland would want to independent in the near future then you are nuts
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Good bloke
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(Original post by robin22391)
and if you are seriously saying that orkney or shetland would want to independent in the near future then you are nuts
Am I?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ands-home-rule

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-Scotland.html
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FinalMH
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(Original post by robin22391)
and if you are seriously saying that orkney or shetland would want to independent in the near future then you are nuts
I remember the same statement being said by Unionist regarding Scotland's Independence and now look at what predicament we are in. Also you should refrain from name calling it doesn't add anything to the debate.
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FinalMH
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You seem to forget that the majority of us wish to remain in the Uk.
How can you assert truth towards this statement?

The Scottish electoral in 2011 decided that one of the mandate of their government will be to hold a referendum on Scotland's Independence. Opinions will change over the course of time so to state that majority is in favour of staying in the union may be true but lacks any evidence to support the statement. The only conclusive evidence to back up your proposition would be the referendum result itself.

So let’s refrain from stating propositions as fact where you cannot assert truth towards it.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by FinalMH)
Opinions will change over the course of time so to state that majority is in favour of staying in the union may be true but lacks any evidence to support the statement.
While it is true to say that the situation may change and that the only poll that really matters is the referendum next year, it certainly isn't true to say there is no evidence to support the assertion that a majority of Scots currently favour staying in the UK. Opinion polls are being taken constantly and they are, within the limits of accuracy, pretty consistent in showing that a majority (or at least, and more relevantly, a plurality) is against independence.
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Midlander
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(Original post by robin22391)
northern ireland was only formed because a group called the uvf threatened to raise an army of 100,000 men to become traitors...the british government had already granted all of ireland freedom but it knew that its soldiers would not be convinced so easily to kill the uvf rebels...so it had to revise and declare that the north would remain british

if you are suggesting something like that could happen in scotland then you are nuts
The British army would've had no reason to stay so don't see what you're on about.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by robin22391)
northern ireland was only formed because a group called the uvf threatened to raise an army of 100,000 men to become traitors...the british government had already granted all of ireland freedom but it knew that its soldiers would not be convinced so easily to kill the uvf rebels...so it had to revise and declare that the north would remain british

if you are suggesting something like that could happen in scotland then you are nuts

Why is that nuts? There's rather similar similarities between the two.
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FinalMH
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(Original post by Good bloke)
While it is true to say that the situation may change and that the only poll that really matters is the referendum next year, it certainly isn't true to say there is no evidence to support the assertion that a majority of Scots currently favour staying in the UK. Opinion polls are being taken constantly and they are, within the limits of accuracy, pretty consistent in showing that a majority (or at least, and more relevantly, a plurality) is against independence.
Obviously the polls reliability would be in question. My point was more focused towards truth rather than "blown up" results towards a national scale. It may be true that all national polls show the majority is against independence but it is a big leap to suggest the whole population of Scotland is indeed against independence. It should also be noted that opinion polls don't always get the result exact albeit within the margin of error.

For example, the Scottish elections 2011: http://tinyurl.com/kyy2zou
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by FinalMH)
Obviously the polls reliability would be in question. My point was more focused towards truth rather than "blown up" results towards a national scale. It may be true that all national polls show the majority is against independence but it is a big leap to suggest the whole population of Scotland is indeed against independence. It should also be noted that opinion polls don't always get the result exact albeit within the margin of error.

For example, the Scottish elections 2011: http://tinyurl.com/kyy2zou

Dont talk utter pishe. This is completely different to an election
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Navarone
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I think Scottish independence is a bad thing for a number of reasons but I think the economy is a major concern. I can't see the Bank of England wanting a country who isn't part of the UK to use the pound and as for the eurozone, well, we all know what is happening with that. But when the referendum comes, if Scotland do get a majority vote for independence I will admire them for that and wish them good luck, they will need it.
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L i b
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(Original post by Kj91)
You say the oil is in Lib Dem territory? If Shetland opted to remain with rUK they would only have island enclave status under International Maritime law ie 12 miles sea boundary which does not include any oil fields. It would be Scotlands oil not the Shetlands.
International law does not mandate that. Economic zones and so forth are primarily set by agreement or, in cases of secession, pre-existing boundaries.
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L i b
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(Original post by robin22391)
northern ireland was only formed because a group called the uvf threatened to raise an army of 100,000 men to become traitors...
Treason is a rather strong term for fighting to maintain the unity of the state against the wishes of the government. You're perhaps right on this one though, however...

the british government had already granted all of ireland freedom but it knew that its soldiers would not be convinced so easily to kill the uvf rebels...so it had to revise and declare that the north would remain british
Your timing is out. The Ulster Volunteers were formed in 1912, long before any sort of agreement on Irish secession had been considered. In 1912 they weren't even fighting secession, they were fighting Home Rule.
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freddy2222
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(Original post by FinalMH)
I remember the same statement being said by Unionist regarding Scotland's Independence and now look at what predicament we are in. Also you should refrain from name calling it doesn't add anything to the debate.
thats not name calling its playful rhetoric
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