STEM students should pay higher tuition fees

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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    Why should a poorer student or a student with financial difficulty be excluded from top end universities compared to their more welathy peers?
    Everyone is eligible for loans to cover costs. Noone can not afford the fees.

    I'm a STEM student. I don't get any more teaching than any other students in other courses. I get 12 hours a week, 6 hours of lectures and 6 hours of practicals, just like every other student at my university.
    This is unusual. Generally STEM students have lots more contact time: https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-contact-hours

    Out of interest, how do humanities students do practicals?
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    100% do not agree with this!

    People should not be penalised for picking a STEM subject. Upon graduation average student debt will be £40k+ and it is quickly becoming normal for STEM jobs to require a masters just to get on the grad scheme!

    Average starting salary is around £25k, if you work for a good company you'd probably retire 45 years later on maybe £45k?

    I've got friends who have done degrees in business, art, english etc and not one of them works in that field, mainly because they don't want to work an office job. Should they have the incentive of a low price degree to not work in the industry? No way!

    A STEM degree requires a lot of work. 30 hours + contact time and then the same again in completing tutorials, group projects etc. Now its expected by employers for students to be unique. This requires self learning of programming, languages, getting imvolved with science based societies, volunteering, basically anything you can put on your cv.

    Further education is not a right, you're not owed anything. The whole point of going to university is to better yourself and become qualified and work in that field, not to have an experience of living away from home and sitting through lectures hungover.

    Graduating with a degree does not equal employability. 40% of young people go to university you have to stand out, it's not to do with the job market it's about how much you really want the job.

    STEM subjects are needed badly to help the country - medical researchers, engineers, physicists, chemists are all needed to provide energy, water, healthcare and homes. Do you really want to make these people pay more?
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    Students who study maths at Cambridge already pay a lot more then students who study theology at chester.
    Wut?

    No they don't. They both pay the same tuition fee. And accomodation/living costs at Cambridge are much cheaper than most other universities - largely due to short terms.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Wut?

    No they don't. They both pay the same tuition fee. And accomodation/living costs at Cambridge are much cheaper than most other universities - largely due to short terms.
    I think you mis read my post a bit, I made the point in the very next paragraph that they pay more by working more hours.You possibly misunderstood what I meant here, and assumed I was referring to bar work or something.

    No I mean they pay more with their labor. yes Cambridge students may pay the same tuition fees but I was clearly referring to cost in terms of Labor and hours of studying. By labor I mean the time they have to spend reading/studying learning etc.

    This is not an obvious cost but an opportunity cost, they could use that time for recreation or for part time/full time work. They choose to forgo as a sacrifice to pursue a more rigorous degree.

    I am aware that this not easy to put a figure on but it is still a significant cost that also contributes to a tougher degree.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    I think you mis read my post a bit, I made the point in the very next paragraph that they pay more by working more hours.You possibly misunderstood what I meant here, and assumed I was referring to bar work or something.

    No I mean they pay more with their labor. yes Cambridge students may pay the same tuition fees but I was clearly referring to cost in terms of Labor and hours of studying. By labor I mean the time they have to spend reading/studying learning etc.

    This is not an obvious cost but an opportunity cost, they could use that time for recreation or for part time/full time work. They choose to forgo as a sacrifice to pursue a more rigorous degree.

    I am aware that this not easy to put a figure on but it is still a significant cost that also contributes to a tougher degree.
    You are incorrectly assuming a student of theology at Chester isn't doing a very significant amount of independent learning.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You are incorrectly assuming a student of theology at Chester isn't doing a very significant amount of independent learning.
    I am assuming that as an aggregate average students studying stem degrees at elite universities put in more work then those studying weaker subjects at poorer universities.

    I am sure most students put time into studying very significant is subjective term what is very significant 3 hours 8 hours 16 hours 30 hours 100 hours?

    I am sure their are students who take the piss at cambridge and students who work their asses off at chester or elsewhere,

    I speak generically in average terms.

    Are you seriously going to tell me that a theology degree from Chester requires as much or more work then a maths degree from Cambridge?
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    So tired of people saying non-STEM subjects have low contact hours/are useless/won't get people a decent or good income, etc. People on this site seriously need to stop generalizing non-STEM as if it's all media studies at some low ranked university.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    So tired of people saying non-STEM subjects have low contact hours/are useless/won't get people a decent or good income, etc. People on this site seriously need to stop generalizing non-STEM as if it's all media studies at some low ranked university.
    But statistics show that non STEM degrees do tend to have lower contact hours and lower earning prospects.

    Is using statistics "generalizing". If so, I'm all for it.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    Are you seriously going to tell me that a theology degree from Chester requires as much or more work then a maths degree from Cambridge?
    I am not a theologian, but it becomes very tedious when people talk down other courses/universities.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    But statistics show that non STEM degrees do tend to have lower contact hours and lower earning prospects.

    Is using statistics "generalizing". If so, I'm all for it.
    No, using statistics is not generalizing. Generalizing is using the average of a group of things and then saying it applies specifically to an individual (person, course, etc.) within that group. So, saying that the average non-STEM subject has fewer contact hours than the average STEM subject is true, saying that non-STEM subjects have fewer contact hours than STEM subjects is a generalization, because some don't.
    To get back to the point of the thread, saying that non-STEM degrees should charge less because they have fewer contact hours and graduates are likely to earn less is stupid, because that is not necessarily the case. The thread should have argued: degrees with many contact hours and high probable earnings should charge higher tuition fees.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    saying that non-STEM subjects have fewer contact hours than STEM subjects is a generalization, because some don't.
    Meh, semantics.

    If you say "men are taller than women", it's clear you mean on average and there can be exceptions. Doesn't really change the meat of the argument.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    I am not a theologian, but it becomes very tedious when people talk down other courses/universities.
    not all courses are equal and not all universities are equal. employers want skills and want hard workers. Some universities and degrees are better then others. Sorry if this offends people but it does people more favors then been dishonest. I am not implying that a degree in theology from Chester university has no worth or requires no work/effort.

    I am saying a degree in Theology from Chester university has less economic worth and requires less work/effort then a stem degree from Cambridge.

    this is a fact.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    No, using statistics is not generalizing. Generalizing is using the average of a group of things and then saying it applies specifically to an individual (person, course, etc.) within that group. So, saying that the average non-STEM subject has fewer contact hours than the average STEM subject is true, saying that non-STEM subjects have fewer contact hours than STEM subjects is a generalization, because some don't.
    To get back to the point of the thread, saying that non-STEM degrees should charge less because they have fewer contact hours and graduates are likely to earn less is stupid, because that is not necessarily the case. The thread should have argued: degrees with many contact hours and high probable earnings should charge higher tuition fees.
    Degrees with many hours and high probable earnings are STEM degrees, no?
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Meh, semantics.

    If you say "men are taller than women", it's clear you mean on average and there can be exceptions. Doesn't really change the meat of the argument.
    Being tall or short is not generally considered insulting, saying someone's degree is easy/useless/etc. is. It's comparable to saying black people should be sent to prison more than white people because they are more criminal. By being so insensitive to the situation people who say these things are being unnecessarily offensive.
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    Degrees with many hours and high probable earnings are STEM degrees, no?
    No. STEM stands for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics, it does not been that those degrees necessarily have many hours or high probable earnings, nor does it mean that degrees that don't fall into that category have low hours or low probable earnings.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    Being tall or short is not generally considered insulting, saying someone's degree is easy/useless/etc. is. It's comparable to saying black people should be sent to prison more than white people because they are more criminal. By being so insensitive to the situation people who say these things are being unnecessarily offensive.
    I think that the race thing is a bit of an extreme analogy...
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    I think that the race thing is a bit of an extreme analogy...
    Of course it is, that's why I wrote "comparable". That doesn't mean the two are equally serious or important, just that we can compare the two, in this case because they are both examples of an insensitive generalization.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    Being tall or short is not generally considered insulting, saying someone's degree is easy/useless/etc. is. It's comparable to saying black people should be sent to prison more than white people because they are more criminal. By being so insensitive to the situation people who say these things are being unnecessarily offensive.
    I am not going to be pulled into a conversation about race, we are talking about the value and rigor of degrees not the merits of the penal system or social inequalities.

    It is a fact that different degrees are easier or harder then others, that some degrees require more work then others, and some degrees have more economic utility then others.

    I don't want to get personal but I need to here to point out what people like you do.

    when I was 3 my mother was told I was delayed. In case you don't know what they meant is that I was retarded. When my mother heard the term delayed she naturally thought that just meant i was behind right now but I would catch up.she based decisions on that until she found out what it actually meant then got me the actual help I needed.

    before we get to the insults don't go there I am autistic I have been tested recently in (in January this year) and scored 144. now this is ironic because average IQ is 100 IQ<70 is considered retarded 100-70=30 144-100=44.
    just putting it out there before the insults fly.

    anyway I in fact got the help I needed and turned out fine. sure I struggle to get dates but I am functioning on a level that most people in society never will.

    they should have just used the dreaded R word instead of trying to be politically correct. now I can use the G word. YAY.

    your suggestion that people should not state actual facts because it hurts peoples feelings is asinine.

    people need to know the truth so that they can make better informed decisions.

    It does not do perspective students any favors to hide the truth from them in the name of political correctness as to avoid hurting feelings. The best practice is to be brutally honest with them and allow them to make a free informed decision with that information knowing the consequences.

    if at that point knowing that information someone chooses to pursue a theology degree then that is their decision and i respect that.

    Just don't expect me to lie to them and tell them they will earn the same as someone doing a maths engineering or law degree.
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    If anything it should be the other way around. Subsidise people doing degrees which will enable them to contribute to the country/economy (and also encourage people to take STEM) and if people want to study art or something then they have to pay for that.
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    (Original post by doodle_333)
    If anything it should be the other way around. Subsidise people doing degrees which will enable them to contribute to the country/economy (and also encourage people to take STEM) and if people want to study art or something then they have to pay for that.
    Are you saying that STEM degrees should be free? I believe that HE is extremely important but it should never be free. Also universities and the job market would become overwhelmed and saturated with STEM students, which would mean that graduate and STEM unemployment would alarmingly increase....
 
 
 
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