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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Orthodox Jews do serve in the IDF; only a few small sects don't serve.



    A panel of Israeli rabbis recently ruled that these Ethiopians are legitimate Jews, which is why they have been allowed to move to Israel in large numbers.
    Why were they considered illegitimate in the first place? Accepted thier beliefs were not mainstream however, dont you feel that it may of have been something more sinister in terms of creed and racial lines given inherent zionist tendancies?

    Also the fact that Palestinians are by far outnumbering Israelis could have swayed the rabbis in their thoughts when legitimizing these jews.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    If a non-orthodox Jew studies the Torah at university, presumably they won't have to serve either.
    touche :p:
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    (Original post by YaMahdi)
    Why were they considered illegitimate in the first place? Accepted thier beliefs were not mainstream however, dont you feel that it may of have been something more sinister in terms of creed and racial lines given inherent zionist tendancies?

    Also the fact that Palestinians are by far outnumbering Israelis could have swayed the rabbis in their thoughts when legitimizing these jews.
    mmm. i don't like how they act as though the best solution for jews is for them to emigrate to israel.
    -if all jews moved to israel the internal pressures would get worse necessitating the need to expand into palestinian territory even more
    -if jews continued to move to israel the loss in revenue would be massive (because many jews living abroad - especially in the US both through their voting and through their direct cash support israel through financial aid.
    -moving people from utterly foreign nations into israel further provokes the inhabitants. it also actually pisses off quite a few israelis too. (would someone care to share with us the name given to thee new comers..?)
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    (Original post by Bismarck)

    There are one million Arabs and five million Jews in Israel.
    I should have been more precise. The ratio of Palestinians to the occupiers is increasing in favour of the Palestians.

    The jews are just not gettin jiggy any more!
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Anywho, it looks like neither of us knows the specifics of this, but what is certain, is that most orthodox Jews do serve in the military, and that Israel considers the preservation of Judaism important enough to exempt those who study it from military service.
    OMG i think i have been wayyyyyyyyy off the mark for yonks
    "Contrary to the perception of many non-Jews and even many secular and semi-practicing Jews, the State of “Israel” and the Zionist movement are actually considered the antithesis of Jewish beliefs. Proponents of Zionism have been engaged in a long futile struggle to find ways to legitimize their beliefs to traditional Judaism since the movement was first conceived at the end of the19th century. Zionism is regarded within traditional Orthodox Jewry as being completely contrary to the Torah and to how it has been practiced for thousands of years."

    And also this...
    "To Zionists, Haredi Jews were either "primitives" or "parasites"; to Haredi Jews, Zionists were heretics. This kulturkampf still plagues Israeli society today, where animosity between the two groups has even pervaded both their educational systems.
    "

    However, it seems they sold out to the right wing post 1977 in return for more benefits...
    http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...thodox-Judaism [very interesting]
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    (Original post by YaMahdi)
    I should have been more precise. The ratio of Palestinians to the occupiers is increasing in favour of the Palestians.

    The jews are just not gettin jiggy any more!
    The more religiuls the people, the more children they tend to have. And arabs seem to be all very religious while Israel is full of atheists and not so religiuos people, but if the religiuos keep having so many children, they will outnumber them sometime...
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    (Original post by anabelle)
    The more religiuls the people, the more children they tend to have. And arabs seem to be all very religious while Israel is full of atheists and not so religiuos people, but if the religiuos keep having so many children, they will outnumber them sometime...
    I am not doubting that in any way shape or form

    However, they certainly seem religous enough to create and live in settlements under the banner of their faith.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    False. Some orthodox sects opposed the existence of Israel back then and still do. The separation between Zionists and non-Zionists isn't as neast as Progressives versus Orthodox.
    i don't doubt that alot still oppose zionism, but others obv have caved.
    my query is whther these orthodox groups were orignally in palestine pre-israel...or whether they moved there.
    cos surely by moving there they were commiting quite a zionistic act... :confused:
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Some people won't be satisfied until all the Jews are driven into the sea (as is the official position of the PLO and Hamas).
    Actually, the PLO recognised Israel's existence in 1993.
    Does it actually matter whether they or Hamas recognise it in principal if in practise they accept its existence? The queen still claims to be queen of France, I think, but this doesn't affect relations between the British and French governments.

    Yet again: the only superiority of the Palestinians' claim to what is now is Israel is that the Palestinians' earlier ancestors took the land before the Israelis took it from their later ancestors. Accusations of stealing land make very good rhetoric, if people don't think about it, but they make no practical difference except to make negotiation more difficult.
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    (Original post by YaMahdi)
    We have all seen on the news how Israeli forces are removing settlers and settlements in the Gaza strip. One may find it easy to applaud Sharon's administration for such actions and steps towards reconciliation however, one must avoid being so easily mislead by this terrorist.

    While settlements in Gaza are being removed what is going to happen in the West Bank? We will begin to see an increasing amount of radical jews (zionists) migrating to the West Bank and the creation of more illegal settlements on Palestinian land. The West Bank is of much greater interest to the Isrealis, both spiritually and politically and a stronger zionist presence in this volatile area is part of Sharons longer term plan. In the long run the only thing i can envisage is greater hardship for the Palestinians. The current pull out i feel is no moe than a publicity stunt to win over the international community.
    I'm not applauding Sharon. I think the man is a traitor and an utter disgrace. He should be doing the exact opposite of what he is doing IMO; extending Israel's grip on Gaza and building more settlements.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'm not applauding Sharon. I think the man is a traitor and an utter disgrace. He should be doing the exact opposite of what he is doing IMO; extending Israel's grip on Gaza and building more settlements.
    You sound just like my girlfriend. Talk about palestinians and her eyes just glaze over as if they aren't even worthy of thinking about.

    Why don't you send all the palestinians to a few very large urban prison, and free up even more land for settlers?
    build a big wall around these prisons to make sure they can't get out etc.
    Heck, nearly worked for the nazis. might work with addition of modern technology... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Jamie)
    which as i have mentioned many times before (and you forget everytime) they aquired through deceptive corrupt underhand methods. it wasn't their land to sell.
    Just like the land being bought by chav british families in turkish cyprus often isn't the turkish cypriots to sell
    Which methods are these and did this invalidate the legality of the acquisition?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Which methods are these and did this invalidate the legality of the acquisition?
    I think it was towards the end of the ottoman empire - very late 19th century that a new bill was enacted requiring land to be registered by its owners. THe idea was actually fair enough - the government wanted to consolidate and file land deeds. Unfortunately there were many unscopulous business men who registered massive swathes of land (with appropriate kick backs for officals no doubt) despite the land being occupied by palestinian farmers, villages etc. They then sold them on to the early zionists.

    This itself is quite well documented, the question is whether this invalidates the claim. Not legal wise no doubt it doesn't - simply because the people who sold the land made up the laws to make it accepting. But morally there is no question that these people were taken advantage of massively.

    If someone burgles me and steals my VCR, selling it on for £20 to my neighbour, then both are in the wrong - morally and legally. That's my outlook with turkish cyprus, and israel.

    [And yes i KNOW many israelis already had land there, and bought it fair and square. am just pointing out that huge amounts of aquisitions were EXTREMELY underhand and had questionable moral and legal status]
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    (Original post by Jamie)
    I think it was towards the end of the ottoman empire - very late 19th century that a new bill was enacted requiring land to be registered by its owners. THe idea was actually fair enough - the government wanted to consolidate and file land deeds. Unfortunately there were many unscopulous business men who registered massive swathes of land (with appropriate kick backs for officals no doubt) despite the land being occupied by palestinian farmers, villages etc. They then sold them on to the early zionists.

    This itself is quite well documented, the question is whether this invalidates the claim. Not legal wise no doubt it doesn't - simply because the people who sold the land made up the laws to make it accepting. But morally there is no question that these people were taken advantage of massively.

    If someone burgles me and steals my VCR, selling it on for £20 to my neighbour, then both are in the wrong - morally and legally. That's my outlook with turkish cyprus, and israel.

    [And yes i KNOW many israelis already had land there, and bought it fair and square. am just pointing out that huge amounts of aquisitions were EXTREMELY underhand and had questionable moral and legal status]
    If these businessmen registered the land, then the deeds were registed in their name. The 'Zionists' were then right to acquire land from those that held the deeds to the land. Unfortunate that this wasnt necessarily those people who were resident on the land, but this is far from claiming that Jewish settlers stole land, which is precisely what Bismarck replied to.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'm not applauding Sharon. I think the man is a traitor and an utter disgrace. He should be doing the exact opposite of what he is doing IMO; extending Israel's grip on Gaza and building more settlements.
    Its comments like that which fuel furhter hatred towards jews, not just zionsit scum. Carry on mate, i am sure if people continued spoting such bull 5hit the middle eastern will improve.

    idiot



    MAG BAR ISRAEL
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    If these businessmen registered the land, then the deeds were registed in their name. The 'Zionists' were then right to acquire land from those that held the deeds to the land. Unfortunate that this wasnt necessarily those people who were resident on the land, but this is far from claiming that Jewish settlers stole land, which is precisely what Bismarck replied to.
    just because they didn't get their hands dirty, doens't mean they are clean.
    they knew full well what had happened - they had to physically evict the people from their newly bought land.
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    (Original post by Jamie)
    just because they didn't get their hands dirty, doens't mean they are clean.
    they knew full well what had happened - they had to physically evict the people from their newly bought land.
    You mean squatters don't get evicted in Britain?
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    (Original post by YaMahdi)
    Its comments like that which fuel furhter hatred towards jews, not just zionsit scum. Carry on mate, i am sure if people continued spoting such bull 5hit the middle eastern will improve.

    idiot



    MAG BAR ISRAEL
    So you are admitting you already have hatred towards the Jews then?
    (Oh and btw, he's not Jewish.)

    Zionist scum? So because some people want to have a Jewish State, it means they are scum?

    idiot

    would you like to enlighten me on what your last line means?

    SHALOM AL YISRAEL.
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    (Original post by gemgems89)
    So you are admitting you already have hatred towards the Jews then?
    (Oh and btw, he's not Jewish.)

    Zionist scum? So because some people want to have a Jewish State, it means they are scum?

    idiot

    would you like to enlighten me on what your last line means?

    SHALOM AL YISRAEL.
    Aurash over here tells me that Mag Bar Israel means death to/destruction of Israel.
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    Aurash over here tells me that Mag Bar Israel means death to/destruction of Israel.
    Aurash did this, aurash did that, aurash got chucked out of her country and fled form the evil terrorist.

    BTW zionist want cntrol all of israel and beyond, so yes they are scum.

    im so glad that im not or do not have any affiliation with a country that is not recognised by so many and status is founded on bloodshed.
 
 
 
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