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Reply 100
Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod
es, you missed my point - 92% white doesnt mean gentically white caucasian- they just look white to you. Scientifcally most white britons have subtantial amount of genes from south spanish who were were effectively brown (who in turn probaly have some heritage from mediterranean and north africa). Plus they have smaller elements of nordic, arabic, black african, gallic, roman, scandanvian and asiatic genetic heritage. Europeans generally are the most genetically diverse peoples on the planet and britan especially seeing as it has been invaded so many times. But you would never know by looking at them - because gentically all humans whatever the race are almost identical

You can read about this white middle class accountant teacher in the USA whos family came from Cumbria had confirmed anestry traced back to Gengis khan

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/214475_genghis_gene_pool_traced_to_cumbria


cool
Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod
i reallly havent the energy to post all the reaserch, but you can take my word for it
, its been clarified by dna mapping about about 5 years ago i think

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367572-ancient-britons-come-mainly-from-spain.do


Original post by calkin700
he's right

I didn't know it either but after googling i found this

''the genetic record indicates the British and Irish broadly share a closest common ancestry with the Basque people who live in the Basque Country by the Pyrenees.

the majority of the people of the British Isles share genetic commonalities with the Basques, ranging from highs of 90% in Wales to lows of 66% in East Anglia. ''

So brits are basque ? wow


Thanks to both for the links and the information. That was quite interesting to me. I guess I'll probably be doing more research into this. Thanks again. :smile:
Reply 102
Original post by ajp100688

The genetic link still exists in the Cornish and Welsh, it doesn't in ethnic English. It's been entirely submerged by Germanic genes aside from in a few places such as Devon which have some lingering Celtic markers thanks to Devon being conquered relatively late by the Anglo-Saxon invaders. Remember this was a process that took hundreds of years, from around 400AD to about 900AD, it wasn't like the Anglo-Saxons just came over the seas in one mass wave, killed or chased away all the Britons in a year and that was that. It's a very poorly understand period of time by the public. Many people don't even know how England was formed via Wessex conquering Mercia or about the heptarchy.


I bet it does. Just not as much on average as in Cornwall and Wales. What I mean is that it's almost a certainty that any given English person will have some ancestors from Wales or Cornwall.

It's all about averages. The population of Wales has on proportionally more "celtic" DNA than the population of England. But it's still totally possible someone from England, with no traceable Welsh ancestry, could have more "celtic" DNA than someone from Wales with no traceable English ancestry. Maybe the Anglo-Saxons did come and clear out the natives 1500 or so years ago. But since then the populations haven't remained entirely separate.
Reply 103
Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod
The article you just posted jsut claimed 10-20 k of anglo saxons wiped out the remnants of 2 million indigenous britons over the course of about 15 generations.

With what evidence? A computer simulation. What rubbish. Yes the period is poorly understood due to the limitations of records, acheology etc - hence why genetic mapping has been such a boon in the last 10 or so years.
And the largest genetic mapping excercise conducted in Britain has shown that the Basque and Iberian genes are most prevalent in the white british populations here and anglo saxons are a much smaller fraction as well as various other central european , north africa heritage. And this is not refuted by any current recognised research that anyone knows of. Of course there will be people that dont want to agree , but who cares. This is exactly what you would expect given that the original britons had been in the country for maybe 20 times longer than anglo saxons.


Actually 100-200k, the 10k is obviously a typo even the Daily Mail isn't idiotic enough to quote such a random number as 10k-200k. Also you keep ignoring the Oxford University/Wellcome Trust survey as if it never happened. It produces very different results to what you're claiming are gospel truth.

I don't know why you keep mentioning North African genes aswell, their contribution to the English people is miniscule and limited to those North Africans who lived in Britain during the Roman Empire as soldiers or administrators. None of whom settled in large enough numbers to influence English genetics....especially when they were living alongside the Welsh and not the English who were still in Germania.

Oppenheimer's theory is highly contentious and other parts of his argument are heavily debated aswell such as the ideas that he put forth that English is actually native to England and didn't come with the Anglo-Saxons, despite it's obvious links with Frisian and German and the total lack of any linguistic evidence to prove this. It should be remembered that Oppenheimer is a hobbyist more than anything else, his expertise is paedatrics, unlike Walter Bodmer (who did the Oxford/Wellcome study).
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 104
Original post by Psyk
I bet it does. Just not as much on average as in Cornwall and Wales. What I mean is that it's almost a certainty that any given English person will have some ancestors from Wales or Cornwall.

It's all about averages. The population of Wales has on proportionally more "celtic" DNA than the population of England. But it's still totally possible someone from England, with no traceable Welsh ancestry, could have more "celtic" DNA than someone from Wales with no traceable English ancestry. Maybe the Anglo-Saxons did come and clear out the natives 1500 or so years ago. But since then the populations haven't remained entirely separate.


Oh yeah there's definitely still Celtic markers in British people, Devon has more than East Anglia for example because of how late it was conquered and the fact that less Anglo-Saxons migrated to Devon. By 'genetic link' I meant the continuity between the old 'Romano-British' population and the modern day. The Cornish and Welsh are substantially descended from those people, the English and a good deal of the Scots are not.
Reply 105
Original post by Gnobe
Britain is a multi-racial country and NOT a white nation.

We are becoming a mix race country full of all sorts of humans. The world is becoming mixed race and the day we have a one world government or larger autonomous states the better, the human race well serve better that way rather than with pointless nationalism.



Eugh, please stop stating your hideously left wing views as fact. We don't "need to". You think we need to.

We won't see a one world government until an alien race is found.
Original post by ajp100688
Actually 100-200k, the 10k is obviously a typo even the Daily Mail isn't idiotic enough to quote such a random number as 10k-200k. Also you keep ignoring the Oxford University/Wellcome Trust survey as if it never happened. It produces very different results to what you're claiming are gospel truth.

I don't know why you keep mentioning North African genes aswell, their contribution to the English people is miniscule and limited to those North Africans who lived in Britain during the Roman Empire as soldiers or administrators. None of whom settled in large enough numbers to influence English genetics....especially when they were living alongside the Welsh and not the English who were still in Germania.

Oppenheimer's theory is highly contentious and other parts of his argument are heavily debated aswell such as the ideas that he put forth that English is actually native to England and didn't come with the Anglo-Saxons, despite it's obvious links with Frisian and German and the total lack of any linguistic evidence to prove this. It should be remembered that Oppenheimer is a hobbyist more than anything else, his expertise is paedatrics, unlike Walter Bodmer (who did the Oxford/Wellcome study).


Seeing as you didnt provide any details of this Oxford/Welcome research, yes because its so insignficant it seems hard to track down, But i did -

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

Youll see it was started back in 2005 and theefore has been superceeded by at least 2 years by Sykes Genetic mapping research and looked at a sample of about 3000 people compared to over 10000 in Sykes data. This probably why this reasearch isnt discussed internationally to the extent that Sykes is. Sykes was a head of Genetics at Oxford btw.

Im not sure why you keep bringing up Openheimer, some of his works may have been theoretical but Sykes most large scale and detailed genetic testing of british samples has effectivley proved him right. So whatever your own opinion of Openheimer his more highly regarded work by his peers than Bodmers who i hadnt even heard of till today.
So it is the out dated (late victorian ) theory that the british is majority anglo saxon that is the fringe and disputed theory currently.
Reply 107
Black.
Reply 108
Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod
Seeing as you didnt provide any details of this Oxford/Welcome research, yes because its so insignficant it seems hard to track down, But i did -

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

Youll see it was started back in 2005 and theefore has been superceeded by at least 2 years by Sykes Genetic mapping research and looked at a sample of about 3000 people compared to over 10000 in Sykes data. This probably why this reasearch isnt discussed internationally to the extent that Sykes is. Sykes was a head of Genetics at Oxford btw.

Im not sure why you keep bringing up Openheimer, some of his works may have been theoretical but Sykes most large scale and detailed genetic testing of british samples has effectivley proved him right. So whatever your own opinion of Openheimer his more highly regarded work by his peers than Bodmers who i hadnt even heard of till today.
So it is the out dated (late victorian ) theory that the british is majority anglo saxon that is the fringe and disputed theory currently.


That's strange considering it's still by far the dominant school of thought amongst historians (who I might add are multidisciplinary by their very nature, using science, economics, linguistics, literature blah blah blah to reach their conclusions, so they won't have ignored any scientific studies). The simple fact is that the 'British = not substantially changed since the Ice Age' theory is a new and still disputed theory that isn't backed up by any evidence other than disputed genetics, when Oppenheimer strays from genetics his argument becomes incredibly weak. At the same time alternative surveys exist which suggest a completely different outcome than Oppenheimer/Sykes which call into question the entire basis of their argument.

These surveys are expensive to do, expect another one to come out in a few years disputing Sykes/Oppenheimer and backing up the Bodmer/traditionalist view. DNA analysis is still a very new field which is why you can have one survey suggesting one side of the view and another suggesting another side.

When we have disputed genetic evidence, then the only thing we can look at is the other evidence. All of which suggests the traditional Anglo-Saxon replacing Britons over a slow period and steadily moving westward idea that has been around for a good while for good reason.

For reference, another UCL survey of English and Welsh market towns which supports the traditional view:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

A little excerpt from that: 'Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English' - strange concept if we're all just descended from a post ice age population that arrived from the Basque Country.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by ajp100688
That's strange considering it's still by far the dominant school of thought amongst historians (who I might add are multidisciplinary by their very nature, using science, economics, linguistics, literature blah blah blah to reach their conclusions, so they won't have ignored any scientific studies). The simple fact is that the 'British = not substantially changed since the Ice Age' theory is a new and still disputed theory that isn't backed up by any evidence other than disputed genetics, when Oppenheimer strays from genetics his argument becomes incredibly weak. At the same time alternative surveys exist which suggest a completely different outcome than Oppenheimer/Sykes which call into question the entire basis of their argument.

These surveys are expensive to do, expect another one to come out in a few years disputing Sykes/Oppenheimer and backing up the Bodmer/traditionalist view. DNA analysis is still a very new field which is why you can have one survey suggesting one side of the view and another suggesting another side.

When we have disputed genetic evidence, then the only thing we can look at is the other evidence. All of which suggests the traditional Anglo-Saxon replacing Britons over a slow period and steadily moving westward idea that has been around for a good while for good reason.

For reference, another UCL survey of English and Welsh market towns which supports the traditional view:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

A little excerpt from that: 'Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English' - strange concept if we're all just descended from a post ice age population that arrived from the Basque Country.



I will always back lab science over historical and anthropological theory theory - it is science after all that has proven the theory of our genetic links to apes and genetic mapping is just about as advanced as we get in this area. The traditional view about anglo-saxonism came about by victorian historians guesstimating and assuming all the important variables. It may be a sound way of tracking origin of linguistics etc but it has been proved an primitive scientifc method compared to genetic mapping. Obvioiusly the welsh irish and socts will have retained more of the orginal british genes having fled to the borders upon saxon invasion. But we also now that saxons didnt invade en-masse - so where did all the indigenous people of England go??

And im sure dependant on how you sample your test subjects geographically you can skew results in many ways. But you cant deny, from sykes evidence anyway, that
a) orginal britons were spanish immigrants
b) the subsequent white british population is largley a mish-mash of these plus saxon, norman scandanavian influences plus the myriad of genes collected within the roman empire

We wont know precisely who many people in total still have the orginal 'briton' gene till all white people in the country are tested. But safe to say if only beween 10k and 200k of anglo saxons settled here amoungst a population of 2 million indigenous, the results that show the prevalent remnants from Spain in most uk people is more logical.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 110
Original post by calkin700
Are we Anglo Saxon ?
Roman ?
Celtic ?
Norman ?
Aryan/Nordic ?

Or is each race concentrated in different areas , like Cornwall , Norfolk etc who are different racially ?


The idea that modern humans can be divided into distinctive biological 'races' has long since lost favour, seeing as it is such a problematic, arbitrary and ultimately unscientific enterprise. The evidence of genetics has pretty much been the last nail in the coffin; there's only one 'race', the 'human race'.

When you talk of 'Anglo-Saxons', 'Romans', 'Celts' and so on you're actually making reference to past cultural or ethnic groups in Europe's history.
Reply 111
Dark straight brown hair and blue eyes what is this?
Original post by Oswy
The idea that modern humans can be divided into distinctive biological 'races' has long since lost favour, seeing as it is such a problematic, arbitrary and ultimately unscientific enterprise. The evidence of genetics has pretty much been the last nail in the coffin; there's only one 'race', the 'human race'.

When you talk of 'Anglo-Saxons', 'Romans', 'Celts' and so on you're actually making reference to past cultural or ethnic groups in Europe's history.


Actually, a race is a contested but currently accepted sub-divison of a species in taxonomy, but mainly entails cosmetic differences. Sub-species are more clearly defined and are more likely to split off into other species entirely than a race is.

There is one modern human species, but there are different races.
Original post by Aphotic Cosmos
Actually, a race is a contested but currently accepted sub-divison of a species in taxonomy, but mainly entails cosmetic differences. Sub-species are more clearly defined and are more likely to split off into other species entirely than a race is.

There is one modern human species, but there are different races.


If there is an accurate defintion of race - stricktly speaking the classifations of 'anglo saxon, celtic etc are fairly useless because with mass migrations, conquests and tradeing between huan popualtions since they first formed civilisations none carry pure bloodlines of their specific categorisation.
Anglo saxons heriitage ie will be a mix of Indo-European lineages as the a quick look at the history of their languages shows.
Human. Nationalities are not races, they are merely ethnicities.
Original post by Struggle
Human. Nationalities are not races, they are merely ethnicities.


Human is not a race. It is a species.

A race is a sub-division of a species, even more minute in detail than a sub-species.

Races are sub-Saharan African, Caucasian, Indigenous American, Polynesian, Melanesian, South Asian, etc. - they are groups of ethnicities based on cosmetic differences within the human species. It's stupid to say that they don't exist. The problem comes when idiots try to imply that there is any meaningful difference between them.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Aphotic Cosmos
Human is not a race. It is a species.

A race is a sub-division of a species, even more minute in detail than a sub-species.

Races are sub-Saharan African, Caucasian, Indigenous American, Polynesian, Melanesian, South Asian, etc. - they are groups of ethnicities based on cosmetic differences within the human species. It's stupid to say that they don't exist. The problem comes when idiots try to imply that there is any meaningful difference between them.


No it's not. That's ethnicity not race. In order for there to be a different race between humans there would have to be a significat differnece in the genus giving rise to a different species:



Humans often categorize themselves in terms of race or ethnicity, sometimes on the basis of differences in appearance. Human racial categories have been based on both ancestry and visible traits, especially facial features, skull shape, skin color and hair texture. Most current genetic and archaeological evidence supports a recent single origin of modern humans in East Africa.[76] Current genetic studies have demonstrated that humans on the African continent are most genetically diverse.[77] However, compared to the other great apes, human gene sequences are remarkably homogeneous.[78][79][80][81] The predominance of genetic variation occurs within racial groups, with only 5 to 15% of total variation occurring between groups.[82] Thus the scientific concept of variation in the human genome is largely incongruent with the cultural concept of ethnicity or race. Ethnic groups are defined by linguistic, cultural, ancestral, national or regional ties. Self-identification with an ethnic group is usually based on kinship and descent. Race and ethnicity are among major factors in social identity giving rise to various forms of identity politics, e.g., racism.

There is no scientific consensus of a list of the human races, and few anthropologists endorse the notion of human "race".[83] For example, a color terminology for race includes the following in a classification of human races: Black (e.g. Sub-Saharan Africa), Red (e.g. Native Americans), Yellow (e.g. East Asians) and White (e.g. Europeans).

Referring to natural species, in general, the term "race" is obsolete, particularly if a species is uniformly distributed on a territory. In its modern scientific connotation, the term is not applicable to a species as genetically homogeneous as the human one, as stated in the declaration on race (UNESCO 1950).[84] Genetic studies have substantiated the absence of clear biological borders, thus the term "race" is rarely used in scientific terminology, both in biological anthropology and in human genetics. What in the past had been defined as "races"—e.g., whites, blacks, or Asians—are now defined as "ethnic groups" or "populations", in correlation with the field (sociology, anthropology, genetics) in which they are considered.



While biological scientists sometimes use the concept of race to make practical distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race is often used by the general public[5] in a naive[6] or simplistic way. Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all people belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens.[7][8][neutrality is disputed] Regardless of the extent to which race exists, the word "race" is problematic and may carry negative connotations.[9] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies[10][11][12] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived sets of traits. Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[13] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits.[6][14]

As people define and put about different conceptions of race, they actively create contrasting social realities through which racial categorization is achieved in varied ways.[15] In this sense, races are said to be social constructs.[16][17] These constructs can develop within various legal,[15][18] economic,[18] and sociopolitical[19][20] contexts, and at times may be the effect, rather than the cause, of major social situations.[19] Socioeconomic factors,[19][21][22][23][24] in combination with early but enduring[25] views of race, have led to considerable suffering amongst the disadvantaged racial groups. Intergroup competition fosters ingroup biases against their outgroup.[26][27] Accordingly, when groups find themselves in competition with their designated outgroups, the more privileged group may subject its disadvantaged counterpart to discriminatory treatment. Racial discrimination often coincides with racist mindsets, whereby the individuals and ideologies of one group come to perceive the members of their outgroup as both racially defined[19] and morally inferior.[28] As a result, racial groups possessing relatively little power[22][29] often find themselves excluded or oppressed, while the individuals and institutions[30] of the hegemony are charged with holding racist attitudes.[23][31] Racism has factored into many instances of tragedy,[32] including slavery and genocide. Scholars continue to debate the degrees to which racial categories are biologically warranted[9][33] and socially constructed, as well as the extent to which the realities[34] of race must be acknowledged in order for society to comprehend and address racism adequately.[15][33]
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Aphotic Cosmos
Human is not a race. It is a species.

A race is a sub-division of a species, even more minute in detail than a sub-species.

Races are sub-Saharan African, Caucasian, Indigenous American, Polynesian, Melanesian, South Asian, etc. - they are groups of ethnicities based on cosmetic differences within the human species. It's stupid to say that they don't exist. The problem comes when idiots try to imply that there is any meaningful difference between them.


A race is a division of specie, not a sub-division. The so-called sub-divisions you stated are merely ethnicities.
Reply 118
The big split is east and west...most of the places with 'thorpe' and 'borough' are on the eastern side of England (Anglo-Saxon) and the West is more Celtic. I know that the East has a higher percentage of people with blue eyes I've heard so we have more of a German ancestry. You could also look at the old kingdoms, like Mercia and Sussex who were different.

The most obvious is from your second name...I'm from the East of England, have blue eyes and second name is Barks (Anglo-Saxon name for a wood storer)!
Original post by morecambebay

Original post by morecambebay
Is the obvious answer not caucasian?

Edit: urban dictionary says not. I do like number 5 though.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=caucasian


I don't think you should go to urban dictionary for a definition of something like the caucasian race :P The caucasian race extends far beyond simply the people of the caucasus region and in fact includes most of, if not all of, Europe. It's confusing terminology, but it's true.

To answer the OP's question, I don't think we can narrow it down more than simply "caucasian" because Britons are such a mixture of celtic, anglo saxon, french, roman, scandinavian....

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