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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

My comment was:

The North East is A PART OF ENGLAND. True. Obviously.

Scotland is a NATION in an EQUAL UNION with England. And so, in entering that union, ceased to be a sovereign nation. As did England. Equally obviously.

If the 2 points I had made in response to a specific comment were 'obviously true', why did you have to resort to distorting them?

I'll have to add your name to my original comment:

Original post by Maths Tutor

That is the DELIBERATE TACTIC of the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36, Good bloke and Midlander.

They resort to BLATANT LIES and DISTORTION to REPEAT their DEBUNKED comments NUMEROUS TIMES.

Reply 1801

Maths Tutor

Original post by Good bloke

But I am 100% sure that HE WILL COME HERE TO CAMPAIGN FOR THE NO SIDE. Have you forgotten that 'every fibre in my body', or something like that, comment?

So my second question was, if he comes here to support the No side, will he have any credibility if he refuses to debate with anyone from the Yes side? Answer Yes or No, like in the referendum question." Sigh. I am equally sure he will not campaign

So what was he doing in Glasgow scaremongering about North Korea attacking an independent Scotland? He was ridiculed even by the Tory media and arch Tories like Portillo. That is why he wouldn't dare debate with anyone from the Yes side - he would end up looking extremely stupid.

Original post by Good bloke

The yes campaign should seek to debate with those leading the no campaign

So why does the leader of the no campaign, Alistair 'Home Flipper' Darling want to debate with Alex Salmond rather than with the leader of the yes campaign?

Reply 1802

Maths Tutor

Original post by Good bloke

Certainly not for anything as fundamental to its economy as unilateral control of its currency.

How come such fundamental control has resulted in a TRILLION POUNDS PLUS national debt and a rising demand for food banks?

Haven't heard of the demand for food banks increasing in any Euro zone member state with no such fundamental control over its currency. In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Reply 1803

DorianGrayism

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

How come such fundamental control has resulted in a TRILLION POUNDS PLUS national debt and a rising demand for food banks?

Haven't heard of the demand for food banks increasing in any Euro zone member state with no such fundamental control over its currency. In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Your second point regarding debt doesn't make sense.

If you mean gross per capita GDP, then Germany and France both have bigger debts. Also, the PIGS have smaller debts...because they are smaller economies.

Also, I live in Ireland. The situation here is way worse than in the UK.

Irish people don't have a free healthcare system. Housing market is dead. Food handouts and homelessness have increased. Any young person with money and sense has gone abroad.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1804

L i b

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

The clue is in the original comment: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives. "

If "the UK does not need Scotland in the slightest" and subsidises Scotland, we CANNOT BE "Better Together" - rUK would be "Better Together" without Scotland.

I'm afraid that's utterly absurd. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that people can work together for mutual advantage.

Even by your own narrow analysis, Scotland has sometimes been a "contributer" to the UK treasury and sometimes has taken from it. That is a normal and good thing, it means that we pool risks and help support one-another.

But of course the value of working together is not only financial, and certainly not only within the strict limits of revenue and public expenditure. If the Nationalists think one statistic which doesn't even convince them one way or other is going to win them the argument, then they're being very foolish indeed. Particularly when it is a state of affairs found within every single sovereign state on earth.

Now, please give the ludicrous hysteria about "lies" a rest. It is, believe it or not, possible to have a sensible and rational discussion about a political topic.

Reply 1805

L i b

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

The 'Bitter Together' anti-Independence Axis is incapable of debating the issue without presenting Scotland to the world as 'too small', 'too poor' and 'too stupid' to run its own affairs everytime they open their mouths.

This is an inferiority complex. You have constructed a myth of victimhood and everything you hear will be twisted to fit in with that myth. It is a common feature of nationalism in history, but it is inherently irrational.

Scotland is small - that is, in some ways, a political disadvantage. Most unionists believe that Scotland would be poorer as an independent country, whether financially or in other terms; that is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint and one which hasn't been seriously rebutted. As for too stupid, no-one is saying that.

In all honestly, I'd be slightly concerned about the current incumbents in the Scottish Parliament being substantially more powers. There are plenty of them that I don't believe are clever enough - every parliament will always have thickies, but Holyrood has more than most, thanks to its electoral system and dynamics as much as anything. Either way, it needs reform.

Kindly remember the point I made earlier: silly soundbytes, CAPS LOCK, riddles and slogans don't look clever on here. It's like you're playing to a non-existence audience - and even if they did exist, you'd be patronising them and turning them off with your aggression. Now I'm not one to mince my words or suffer fools gladly, but you are going well beyond the pale here.

On the side of the Scottish Parliament is a phrase, often misattributed to Alastair Gray and quoted by Alex Salmond, imploring us to "work as though you lived in the early days of a better nation". I just wish we, Scotland, could occasionally live up to that in our politics.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1806

edwinemanuelposse

The Scottish are todlers and London is big brother. the Scottish should take big brothers advice !!!

Reply 1807

Midlander

19

Original post by DorianGrayism

Your second point regarding debt doesn't make sense.

If you mean gross per capita GDP, then Germany and France both have bigger debts. Also, the PIGS have smaller debts...because they are smaller economies.

Also, I live in Ireland. The situation here is way worse than in the UK.

Irish people don't have a free healthcare system. Housing market is dead. Food handouts and homelessness have increased. Any young person with money and sense has gone abroad.

He has just said that Greece is in a better position financially than the UK-I think that sums him up nicely.

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

Reply 1808

Midlander

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

How come such fundamental control has resulted in a TRILLION POUNDS PLUS national debt and a rising demand for food banks?

Haven't heard of the demand for food banks increasing in any Euro zone member state with no such fundamental control over its currency. In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Spain and Italy are both in very weak positions. Ireland received a UK bailout not too long ago and the less said about Greece the better. Germany is the only member keeping it alive and they're getting flak for it.

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

Reply 1809

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Maths Tutor

So why does the leader of the no campaign, Alistair 'Home Flipper' Darling want to debate with Alex Salmond rather than with the leader of the yes campaign?

David Cameron doesn't get a vote on this issue. It's also a devolved issue. Therefore Alex almond should be debating it with people who can actually vote in this referendum.

any views on US miltary bases offer.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-snp-open-to-us-military-bases-1-2880426

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1810

Good bloke

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

If the 2 points I had made in response to a specific comment were 'obviously true', why did you have to resort to distorting them?

Distorted? Let's examine that silly claim, shall we?

I agree that the north-east is part of England. No distortion there.

To the statement Scotland is a NATION in an EQUAL UNION with England I offered the correction, And so, in entering that union, ceased to be a sovereign nation. As did England. Equally obviously.

Again, no distortion. Merely a clarification that Scotland, like England, was a sovereign nation 300 years ago but no longer is.

Your debate appears to have descended to making false and emotive statements, calling those who correct your falsehoods liars and over-using upper case and silly non-jokes.

I notice you haven't replied to the rest of that post of mine. In particular you have not told me why Scots have a higher status than those living in the north-east of England.

So why does the leader of the no campaign, Alistair 'Home Flipper' Darling want to debate with Alex Salmond rather than with the leader of the yes campaign?

I'm glad you asked. For a start, the question clearly demonstrates your irritating propensity for needless and irrelevant personal attacks. My guess as to the answer is that because Salmond is behaving as if he were the leader of the campaign this misleads people into thinking he is the leader. Blair Jenkins is unheard of in England, and probably by most Scots. Most people must believe Salmond is the campaign leader. He should take a leaf out of Cameron's book, let the campaign leaders run the show and get on with his job as Scottish first minister. Or, alternatively, become the leader officially.

Support has grown by two points since January to 36% and opposition has fallen by one point to 46%, while 18% were undecided, according to the Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times and Real Radio."

http://news.stv.tv/politics/218797-y...rendum-battle/

It is a pity your link doesn't work. The two option polling summary on Wikipedia, though, shows a more recent (8 April, today) poll with pro-independence support at 30% and anti-independence at 51%. Will you be trumpeting this supposed massive fall in support for independence by 6% over a fortnight in upper case?

It also shows the current gap to be 21%, slightly up on an average since January 2012 of 19.25%.

The undistorted truth is that the numbers are consistent in hovering at around 30% for yes and 50% for no. Don't forget these polls normally have a margin of error of about 3% for a 95% confidence interval. I can't, personally, see that gap being bridged, even though Salmond has given himself such a long period to do so.

Only one poll counts, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#Opinion_polling

he would end up looking extremely stupid.

Well, he is a politician. Such are the risks they run. He wouldn't be the only one, on either side.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1811

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Maths Tutor

"Yes campaign gains ground in latest independence referendum poll"

"Support has grown by two points since January to 36% and opposition has fallen by one point to 46%, while 18% were undecided, according to the Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times and Real Radio."

http://news.stv.tv/politics/218797-y...rendum-battle/

So I have to repeat:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-yes-and-no-camps-see-fall-in-support-1-2882618

It appears to have dropped back down to the 30% mark. Support fluctuates, but it hovers at that level. Will you and your kind now cease with the personal attacks against anybody that doesn't agree with you (The Majority of us). Riddle me that maths tutor. How can things vary and yet still stay the same?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1812

FinalMH

16

Original post by Maths Tutor

The 'Bitter Together' anti-Independence Axis is incapable of debating the issue without presenting Scotland to the world as 'too small', 'too poor' and 'too stupid' to run its own affairs every time they open their mouths.

Is there ANYTHING that Scotland could do better independently than as part of the UK?

I am quite frankly astonished at why people would want to debate with you. I may not agree with the following statements but they are debatable ('too small', 'too poor' and 'too stupid' ( :s-smilie:

Just out of curiosity what politicians said that?)). Now as you seem uneducated on the word debatable let me educate you.

Debatable(de·bat·a·ble)
1. Being such that formal argument or discussion is possible.
2. Open to dispute; questionable

Now instead of resorting to vindictive name calling, why not present an argument which people can be persuaded?

Now if you want to debate the proposition "Should the Better Together campaign be renamed Bitter Together" then that is something entirely different from the question at hand.Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you should resort to shouting and name calling.

Surely the argument should be founded on facts, evidence and reasoning?
Do you not want people to make informed decisions about the subject?
Do you not want people to be able to make up their own minds up?

:tongue:

I would hope you would stop the name calling but I seriously doubt it.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1813

Maths Tutor

Original post by Maths Tutor

In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Original post by DorianGrayism

If you mean gross per capita GDP, then Germany and France both have bigger debts. Also, the PIGS have smaller debts...because they are smaller economies.

Also, I live in Ireland. The situation here is way worse than in the UK.

Irish people don't have a free healthcare system. Housing market is dead. Food handouts and homelessness have increased. Any young person with money and sense has gone abroad.

I was specifically talking about the National Debt per capita.

The National Debt of the UK is more than 1 TRILLION POUNDS. Taking 1 Trillion and a population of 60 million, that is approximately GBP 17,000 [EUR 20,000] PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

What is the equivalent figure of the Irish National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of Ireland?

Regarding Germany and France, you are confusing GDP with national debt.

Original post by Maths Tutor

Also, the PIGS have smaller debts...because they are smaller economies.

Comparison of DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION is not affected by the size of the economy.

Reply 1814

Maths Tutor

Original post by L i b

Even by your own narrow analysis, Scotland has sometimes been a "contributer" to the UK treasury and sometimes has taken from it.

I HAVE NEVER MADE ANY SUCH ANALYSIS OR COMMENT.

Once more I have to repeat:

Original post by Maths Tutor

That is the DELIBERATE TACTIC of the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36 and Midlander.

They resort to BLATANT LIES and DISTORTION to REPEAT their DEBUNKED comments NUMEROUS TIMES.

Reply 1815

FinalMH

16

Original post by Maths Tutor

I was specifically talking about the National Debt per capita.

The National Debt of the UK is more than 1 TRILLION POUNDS. Taking 1 Trillion and a population of 60 million, that is approximately GBP 17,000 [EUR 20,000] PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

What is the equivalent figure of the Irish National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of Ireland?

Regarding Germany and France, you are confusing GDP with national debt.

Comparison of DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION is not affected by the size of the economy.

Interesting. Assuming you're talking about public debt then I am confused. Just thought I would provide some statistics :smile:

United Kingdom
http://www.debtbombshell.com/
"We owe £18,550 for every man, woman and child"

United Kingdom 2
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedkingdom
£18,678

France
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/france
28,761€

Ireland
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland
30,912€

Germany
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/germany
27,471€

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1816

Maths Tutor

Original post by rmpr97

The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives.

Original post by Maths Tutor

Why then are ALMOST ALL UK POLITICIANS from Cameron downwards fighting with 'every fibre in their body' to keep Scotland in the Union?

Original post by L i b

Because they want to keep their country together? Because they appreciate we are (and the clue's in the name of the campaign) better off together? Pretty basic stuff.

Original post by Maths Tutor

If "the UK does not need Scotland in the slightest" and subsidises Scotland, we CANNOT BE "Better Together" - rUK would be "Better Together" without Scotland.

Did you mean 'Bitter Together'?.

Original post by L i b

I'm afraid that's utterly absurd. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that people can work together for mutual advantage.

UK subsidises Scotland = UK would be better off without Scotland.

Why don't you reply to the point made by rmpr97: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives."

Again I have to repeat:

Original post by Maths Tutor

That is the DELIBERATE TACTIC of the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36 and Midlander.

They resort to BLATANT LIES and DISTORTION to REPEAT their DEBUNKED comments NUMEROUS TIMES.

Reply 1817

Maths Tutor

Original post by Maths Tutor

In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Original post by Midlander

He has just said that Greece is in a better position financially than the UK-I think that sums him up nicely.

Care to provide the figures for the National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of the UK and Greece?

Still waiting for you to provide details of the funds the SNP government had not even received from Westminster which you had repeatedly accused them of not spending.

Again I have to repeat:

Original post by Maths Tutor

That is the DELIBERATE TACTIC of the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36 and Midlander.

They resort to BLATANT LIES and DISTORTION to REPEAT their DEBUNKED comments NUMEROUS TIMES.

Reply 1818

Midlander

19

Original post by Maths Tutor

Care to provide the figures for the National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of the UK and Greece?

Still waiting for you to provide details of the funds the SNP government had not even received from Westminster which you had repeatedly accused them of not spending.

Again I have to repeat:

To say that Greece is in a better economic position than the UK is totally absurd. Italy is on the verge of meltdown, the French are struggling too-it's only Germany who are keeping the Euro afloat at this point.

Besides, this is all by the by-Salmond loves the sterling so wants to keep it. Guess our economy can't be that bad after all.

Reply 1819

Maths Tutor

Original post by Maths Tutor

In fact the pro capita national debt of every single member country of the Euro zone is LOWER THAN THAT OF THE UK. That includes Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland.

Original post by Midlander

Spain and Italy are both in very weak positions. Ireland received a UK bailout not too long ago and the less said about Greece the better. Germany is the only member keeping it alive and they're getting flak for it.

Care to provide the figures for the National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of the UK, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Germany and Greece, say as at 31st December 2012? Then we can see which country is in a better financial situation.

Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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