China's problem with freedom of expression - Will it ever end?

At least people aren't fired from their jobs, fined and locked up in jail for questioning the Holocaust like in the West. Including revisionist historians.

Yes it is a good thing and China shouldn't change.

Grubby western liberals should keep their destructive hands off other countries just like they want the west to leave alone the middle east, but they are known for having double standards. China has been doing perfectly well for the last 25 years and they are comparable to the late 19th century in the U.S. - high economic growth, high social mobility and increasing happiness and life expectancy. China is the only country with a government that is able to properly deal with dissidents (ban on fasting, curfews for Uighurs and Tibet) and is able to properly pass laws rather than going through 4 months of Parliament and ask everybody for their irrelevant opinion.

I applaud China for their system of government and their resulting growth and I both hope and encourage they continue to maintain it for the duration that it works, and deport all liberals away.

So China is succeeding in taming its critical voices, is this a good thing for China? Will other countries attempt similar measures?Thoughts!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-33464788

Yes it is a good thing and China shouldn't change.

Grubby western liberals should keep their destructive hands off other countries just like they want the west to leave alone the middle east, but they are known for having double standards. China has been doing perfectly well for the last 25 years and they are comparable to the late 19th century in the U.S. - high economic growth, high social mobility and increasing happiness and life expectancy. China is the only country with a government that is able to properly deal with dissidents (ban on fasting, curfews for Uighurs and Tibet) and is able to properly pass laws rather than going through 4 months of Parliament and ask everybody for their irrelevant opinion.

I applaud China for their system of government and their resulting growth and I both hope and encourage they continue to maintain it for the duration that it works, and deport all liberals away.

Freedom of expression is a basic human right. No one should be imprisoned or tortured for expressing their views. People in China ( and Tibet) mysteriously "disappear" if they protest against the govt or express differential views. If oppressing people is what makes a developed country, then there is no need for development. Increasing happiness??? Pfft, the CHN govt is just showing the outside world what they want them to see. The reality is quite different. These "dissidents" are just protesting so that they can have the basic human rights that people from most other countries freely enjoy. They do not deserve to be tortured.

While China is definitely not a bastion of free speech, it definitely does not have it as badly as you might seem to think. At least judging from the people I've talked to from over there (expatriates and natives alike). Heck, the police doesn't even carry handguns and many cities have policemen who can't enforce traffic rules because they're not respected enough (and of course, not feared). While I don't think that to be a good thing, it's something few people in the West hear about. There isn't a completely oppressive government in China.

What there is, is a government obsessed with stability given the fact that China had fallen from centuries of being the undisputed world power to being reduced to a bunch of squabbling warring warlord states, and then be marginalized by the West due to its ideology, as well as a country in a very precarious position because of savage capitalism and a need to modernize very fast and switch away from an export-focused economy.

Criticism is allowed as long as it is respectful of China's institutions, from what I've heard and read; as long as it doesn't call for rebellion or revolution. Of course, in the West you only ever see the worst of the news coming out from China, a nation with a population of almost 1.4 billion. Considering it is a developing country that's only had 30 years to reach a GDP equal to that of the US, it is obviously not as liberal, especially given the very different culture. Likewise, corruption in China is labelled as such, while in the West it is often only labelled as 'lobbying' thus bringing down the overall statistics of gov corruption in the West.

Either way, it's been quite clear that China's been on its way to liberalization, even if perhaps slowing down its liberalization more recently (due to slight economic issues given the world economy and especially that of the EU; notice that continued economic prosperity is one of the main things keeping the country together). As the economy matures and becomes more stable, the Chinese government will have less of a need to maintain such a powerful grip over society as a whole, because for the past few decades China's been experiencing break neck paced change.

http://tibet.net/2015/07/tenzin-delek-rinpoche-dies-in-chinese-prison/ .. http://www.leavingfearbehind.com/dhondup-wangchen/ .. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-32771242 . http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/04/world/asia/china-tibet-self-immolations.html?_r=0 .. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/08/authors-china-liu-xiaobo-nobel-prize-winner-pen-international .. I don't know if you can take out some time to look at the above links but this is what is happening in Tibet. And not only Tibetans, but many Chinese disagree with their policies too. Economic Development is a good thing but if it is at the cost of innocent lives and their basic human rights, what good is it? You may not understand because you haven't been in the shoes of those affected by the policies, so it may very well be easy for you to say that China is doing a good job. But as a Tibetan person who is affected by the wrongdoings of the Chinese govt, I can never agree with their actions. I have never been in my own country because I fear for my safety in my own land. I am confused about what my nationality is. Because so many people from my own country have sacrificed their own lives so that their voice can be heard, I dare not call myself Chinese. But the option to identify myself as Tibetan isn't available on paper because most other countries are too scared to call out China for their lack of human rights. I doubt anyone would still "applaud" China if they were the ones going through that hardship. Is it okay for the Chinese govt to treat people like that as long as China's economy develops? I have talked to Chinese people too. And one of them told me that they were taught in school that the Dalai Lama is evil. What kind of school teaches children to demonize people? "Criticism that is respectful of China's institution"? They are basically saying that if anyone says anything that opposes their regime, they're done for. Since I am a Tibetan, I have done a lot of research upon it. I'm not just following the western ideal of democracy. I even liked Communism but Communism is supposed to promote equality, lessen the gap between the rich and the poor etc, but i feel like they're doing just the opposite. there is still a huge gap between the rich and poor, a huge amount of corruption that promotes inequality. Communism is just a cover for them to seem like they are trying to do it for the people. The only Tibetans I have seen that are happy with China are the ones that are officials (of the Chinese govt) and their relatives or people who are bribed/threatened to put up a show about a "happy Tibet" in front of cameras. I just think that no living being deserves to be treated that way. It's appalling how little regard they have for human rights. they are called the "basic" human rights because we see it as an absolute necessity for everyone to have these rights. Their govt hides everything they did wrong to prevent uprising and revolts. But tbh, this kind of selective criticism leaes no room for development. This way, they'll always do what they want to. They can just kill off people like they did at Tiananmen sq just because the criticism of the protestors isn't "respectful of China's institutions" i.e. they just don't want to hear any of it.

What China does, works for China. A complete paradox - but it works.

Leave them be.

Well, maybe certain forms of pressure can be good for China; as in trying to strengthen civil rights and what not but only IN THE LONG TERM as the countries entrenches itself economically and socially. But at the same time, Western standards being applied to China (which is in a very precarious position in terms of stability) is pure ignorance at best, or imbecility.

The Chinese are very engaged in their history and the whole notion of '100 years of humiliation' - across the different divisions and cultures that make up China, traditions still play a massive part of everyday life - this is used to instil a belief and culture of togetherness, cooperation against outsiders and strong national identity. As such, western standards and practices simply wouldn't work there in the current climate.

Corruption will help the country economically; right now promotion is granted based on (a number of things but primarily) how much money you attract to your village over how green or responsible the companies coming are. As such, workers can be treated like dogs and the environment ruined in place of one man's promotion... Hardly fair but they do recognize this (even if it doesn't filter from the top all the way down - largely due to education and extreme poverty - China after all encompasses the third, second and first worlds across its country!).

Civil rights and the such could arguably be improved (I say arguably because the people there by and large are happy with the situation), but if you look at the riots there in 2009 which seen the internet either a) switched off or b) heavy censored afterwards (even still), it makes sense why a communist party terrified of their losing power and identity would want to keep the status quo.

I am in favor of free speech, believe me, but I shall have to reiterate it once more:

China is not in a position to allow for such unregulated free speech.

A country made up of many, many different ethnicities, a country experiencing an extremely dangerous time for its own stability, short and long term, and a country that's only had 30 years to develop and has changed enormously in that same short period of time, AND a country that boasts a culture inherently different from that of the West (of rabid individualism, etc) AND a country that owes its continued EXISTENCE to continued economic development is NOT as of now in a position to allow for complete freedom of speech.

People tend to be a bit too subjective on the matter in the way of being perhaps too objective. People compare China to the West or the US (which is also experiencing a serious amount of human rights abuses, corruption, the serious breakdown of democracy, etc) when it should be fairer to simply consider China's situation. See above.

With regards to the US, lobbying is not considered corruption. It is so in China, thus bringing up the overall corruption values in China. 90% of most people who win public office, including senators, are those with the highest advertisement budgets. Various senators and other politicians have come out as saying they spend in between 4 and 5 hours a day simply giving calls to raise funds. They obviously don't bother with those who have less than $3k or so to throw away. Tell me more about the US (or the UK, Germany, etc) not being plutocracies where the rich rule. Whose concerns will those politicians hear, and who will they make promises for? Those of the very well off for the former, and to corporations for the latter.

The Dalai Lama has even admitted to having been on the payroll of the CIA. I doubt the Dalai Lama is truly an evil person, but I'm also very certain he is extremely biased and doesn't want the best for his people, but rather for his own influence which is seriously curtailed in Tibet. China has controlled Tibet for centuries, and they have raised thousands of schools, hospitals and highway systems there. There are many Western critics and actual Tibetans (including Western Tibetan societies) that oppose the Dalai Lama.

The head of the norwegian nobel committee said that the awarding of the Peace Prize to the Dalai Lama was a form of punishment for the Chinese government.

Those from Tibet experience HUGELY unfair bonuses in entry requirements to universities. There are even some ethnicities that have managed to change themselves over to the Tibetan one just to take advantage of that. I'm not however denying that the central government is eroding the Tibetan culture, but that's been the truth thousands over thousands of times in history; it is what happens. Besides, Tibet was a theocracy that allowed for serfdom and slavery before Communist China's taking of control; I'm not saying it was an evil state, but not the best of states either. I suppose some Tibetans would rather have independence than be financially successful, but the newer generation is likely to disagree. In the end, the newer generations matter more as they are the ones who will benefit or not from what the future may bring.

Western media obviously has a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. While China is a very important trade partner of the West, they are moving away from the West and towards Africa, as well as towards economic autarky (self sufficiency) and the almost polar opposite ideologies make China a natural enemy to most of the world.

In terms of income disparity, that of the US is the same, or in some cases HIGHER in terms of GINI than that of China. Bear in mind that the US had 200 years of economic hegemony, and 70 years of COMPLETE world economic domination.

China had only 30 years to develop, starting from essentially 0. Are you honestly surprised there is income inequality? Please take an interest in economics and economic history; it might interest you and help with your world view.

Considering the fact that they pulled hundreds over hundreds of millions out of poverty, and lead China to become the home to the most middle class citizens in the world in ONLY 30 YEARS is a very clear testament to the Chinese government actually caring about the welfare of its people. Why do they care? Because their legitimacy stems from continuing to improve the material welfare of the population, and as they want stability over all else, they will do their best to keep the population happy about that. That is their main selling point, and they've done it very well; for an authoritarian governmen it's shown itself to be far more flexible as a government than many Western governments (in terms of getting things done for the good of the people). I'm not saying their leadership are god sent ultra-altruistic individuals. I'm saying they're doing their job in helping the Chinese population. Whether or not they are getting rich while doing it is another story, but the bottom line is that China's population is doing unbelievably well for such a populous nation that's had only 30 years to develop.

I hope you will reply; and I also do hope you will individually reply to the reasons I have given. I'm always keen on hearing other people's experience and views on China as it's been an area of interest of mine for quite a while now. I'm willing to keep an open mind even though I doubt you would be yourself; you seem to have strong convictions (which I hope you don't mind me saying that seem to come from an emotional attachment to your own ethnicity rather than actual facts and logic). I'm not denying the fact that China has many issues, and that its government has made plenty of mistakes, but I am being objective about this while you really do not seem to be.

I could go on and on, but it would be nice if we somehow manage to debate on issues perhaps a bit more individually to try and get something out of the debate.