Bill Gates says Brexit would make Britain ‘significantly less attractive

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

See my above comment, you are being a typical remain-snob. I support remain, but when I saw Geldof and his millionaire friends on a luxury yacht mocking working class people concerned about their livelihoods, my stomach just churned at how stupid and ineffectual we've been

I understand the emotions and attitudes that are causing people to vote leave, but that doesn't change the fact that whilst there are genuine reasons behind these emotions, their conclusions (that leaving the EU is going to solve these problems) are completely wrong. The fact of the matter is that the anti-intellectualism that is rife with the Brexit movement, the idea that anyone's opinion is justified regardless of whether it is supported by evidence or not, is extremely problematic. If people start parading around acting as if a layperson's opinion on an issue as incredibly complex as our membership of the EU is just as valid as the expert consensus then I'm sorry, but I cannot take that seriously.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 24

34908seikj

OP

2

Original post by Plagioclase

Of course though, all of the self-taught Europe experts on TSR have no need for the opinions of other lesser beings so I'm sure they won't be swayed by Bill Gates. What does he know!

/s

Are you sure your being sarcastic? lmao

Reply 25

Thutmose-III

4

Original post by 34908seikj

Why do you say it's in their interests more than ours, genuinely curious, considering it will be us having to negotiate with them, implying we have more to lose and more to gain than they do.

We have a trade deficit with Europe i.e. they export more to us than we export to them. In fact, fully 1/3rd of German auto exports are sent to the UK market. For the EU to lose access to the UK market, their biggest single export market, at a time where many of the EU mainland economies are still weak and only just recovering from the Eurozone crisis... that would be madness.

We both have a strong interest in ensuring access to each others' markets. If they refuse to come up with a deal, they will lose it very badly. By contrast, the failure to come up with a deal would probably allow us to reduce our trade deficit with Europe. We can just buy more from America.

In any case, you don't actually need a trade deal to trade. We don't have a free trade agreement with the vast majority of the world and yet we trade with them. They are saying now, before the vote, that we won't get any kind of deal because they want to frighten voters. The reality is they only have their own arrogance to blame for the fact that Brexit is leading the polls. They could have given a good deal to Cameron and it would have been a walkover for Remain. Instead they treated Cameron like an irritating supplicant and sent him away with almost nothing. And now if Britain votes to leave, and they have to give us a trade deal for their economic reasons, then other countries will start to think about exiting.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 26

Thutmose-III

4

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

See my above comment, you are being a typical remain-snob. I support remain, but when I saw Geldof and his millionaire friends on a luxury yacht mocking working class people concerned about their livelihoods, my stomach just churned at how stupid and ineffectual we've been. Nobody will ever be convinced by ''do as I say, I'm smarter/richer than you''

PRSOM

Reply 27

Ladymusiclover

20

Still going to vote leave.

Reply 28

Original post by Plagioclase

I understand the emotions and attitudes that are causing people to vote leave, but that doesn't change the fact that whilst there are genuine reasons behind these emotions, their conclusions (that leaving the EU is going to solve these problems) are completely wrong. The fact of the matter is that the anti-intellectualism that is rife with the Brexit movement, the idea that anyone's opinion is justified regardless of whether it is supported by evidence or not, is extremely problematic.

Then it's the responsibility of the so called intellectuals to communicate the benefits of remaining within the EU. You can't speak to them like they're idiots then act wronged when they give you the finger and tell you to **** off.

This is the entire the problem with the modern left, including Jeremy Corbyn, the discourse within the modern progressive left Church doesn't even begin to recognise the concerns of working class people and when you (we) get slaughtered at the ballet box by *******s like Farage, you act like we weren't extreme enough in the very policies which are alienating traditional left-wing voters to begin with.

Reply 29

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

Then it's the responsibility of the so called intellectuals to communicate the benefits of remaining within the EU. You can't speak to them like they're idiots then act wronged when they give you the finger and tell you to **** off.

This is the entire the problem with the modern left, including Jeremy Corbyn, the discourse within the modern progressive left Church doesn't even begin to recognise the concerns of working class people and when you (we) get slaughtered at the ballet box by *******s like Farage, you act like we weren't extreme enough in the very policies which are alienating traditional left-wing voters to begin with.

What are you talking about? They have! Just about every single reputable economic institution, country and economist had communicated the benefits of remaining within the EU. The information is out there and it could not have been communicated more clearly. But every time an expert gives an opinion that the Leave campaign doesn't like, they say it's scaremongering. And they retaliate with populist messages that couldn't stand up for a moment in the face of the evidence but are swallowed up gleefully by people looking for a scapegoat for their problems. It's not the fault of experts if people do not want to listen to them.

Reply 30

Original post by Plagioclase

What are you talking about? They have! Just about every single reputable economic institution, country and economist had communicated the benefits of remaining within the EU. The information is out there and it could not have been communicated more clearly. But every time an expert gives an opinion that the Leave campaign doesn't like, they say it's scaremongering. And they retaliate with populist messages that couldn't stand up for a moment in the face of the evidence but are swallowed up gleefully by people looking for a scapegoat for their problems. It's not the fault of experts if people do not want to listen to them.

On what planet is telling a working class person on a zero hours contract or a bluecollar tradesperson, we need to remain in the EU because that's good for the financial sector effective communication?

Reply 31

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

On what planet is telling a working class person on a zero hours contract or a bluecollar tradesperson, we need to remain in the EU because that's good for the financial sector effective communication?

You have completely misrepresented the entire debate, this is just one tiny part of the pro-EU argument. It's not just about the financial sector and nobody ever gave the interpretation that it was. If this was just about protecting the financial sector then I'd be a fervent supporter of Leave. Particularly if we're talking about zero-hours contracts, leaving the EU is very obviously the worst possible thing to do because that is giving more power to the government that helped proliferate zero-hours contracts in the first place.

Reply 32

sleepysnooze

3

not as significantly unattractive as his politically and economically illiterate face

Reply 33

MagicNMedicine

20

Original post by 34908seikj

“It will be harder to find and recruit the best talent from across the Continent; talent which, in turn, creates jobs for people in the UK.

Why would it be harder for a British firm to recruit the best talent from across the Continent than for an American firm to recruit them?

Does he support the USA having a free movement agreement with Europe to enable them to hire the best talent from across Europe.

Reply 34

Original post by Plagioclase

You have completely misrepresented the entire debate, this is just one tiny part of the pro-EU argument. It's not just about the financial sector and nobody ever gave the interpretation that it was. If this was just about protecting the financial sector then I'd be a fervent supporter of Leave. Particularly if we're talking about zero-hours contracts, leaving the EU is very obviously the worst possible thing to do because that is giving more power to the government that helped proliferate zero-hours contracts in the first place.

I already agree remain is better for the poorest people. Take a look at this thread, Bill Gates (wealthy Billionaire from America) says this country will be less attractive for investment, that doesn't mean anything to most people and those people for whom that is a compelling argument, are already on board with remain anyway.

Reply 35

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

I already agree remain is better for the poorest people. Take a look at this thread, Bill Gates (wealthy Billionaire from America) says this country will be less attractive for investment, that doesn't mean anything to most people and those people for whom that is a compelling argument, are already on board with remain anyway.

If you consider the fact that one of Leave's principal arguments is that leaving the EU will free up £350m week^-1, arguments concerning reductions in investment in the UK certainly should mean something for most people because that will harm the UK's GDP and hence reduce the amount of money available in the first place. The "leaving the EU will save money" mantra only works with the assumption that the UK economy will not shrink after leaving, something that is being contradicted by just about every economic organisation in existence, and in this case, Bill Gates. If that doesn't mean anything to most people then Leave's flagship argument shouldn't either.

Reply 36

Stiff Little Fingers

Original post by Daddy Longlegz

You're not getting it. Telling leave voters some rich expert doesn't want you to vote leave is not going to make them vote remain. The remain campaign, the very campaign I support has completely failed to engage voters who didn't already intend on voting remain.

If leave voters don't want to listen to those who know what they're talking about then there's nothing you can tell them that will make them vote remain. If they still prefer some nebulous sense of independence over the EU when told what would happen in the event of a brexit, then there's nothing to convince them - the country could go to hell in a handcart but they'd be happy because it's the UK that's decided to do it rather than the EU making them do it.

All this, and things like the BOE predictions will do is sway the undecided voters who are thinking about maybe leaving the EU, but are afraid of the damage it would do.

Reply 37

Original post by Plagioclase

If you consider the fact that one of Leave's principal arguments is that leaving the EU will free up £350m week^-1, arguments concerning reductions in investment in the UK certainly should mean something for most people because that will harm the UK's GDP and hence reduce the amount of money available in the first place. The "leaving the EU will save money" mantra only works with the assumption that the UK economy will not shrink after leaving, something that is being contradicted by just about every economic organisation in existence, and in this case, Bill Gates. If that doesn't mean anything to most people then Leave's flagship argument shouldn't either.

The £350m per week meme is clearly simplistic, but it's concrete, definite and feels eyewatering when the government announces cuts. When the IFS bangs on about leave causing a recession, nobody cares, at all, maybe wealthy people in London, economists. Nobody else.

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

If leave voters don't want to listen to those who know what they're talking about then there's nothing you can tell them that will make them vote remain. If they still prefer some nebulous sense of independence over the EU when told what would happen in the event of a brexit, then there's nothing to convince them - the country could go to hell in a handcart but they'd be happy because it's the UK that's decided to do it rather than the EU making them do it.All this, and things like the BOE predictions will do is sway the undecided voters who are thinking about maybe leaving the EU, but are afraid of the damage it would do.

Less than a month ago leave was strongly in the lead, now Brexit is a genuine likelihood sadly.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 38

Stiff Little Fingers