PhD: How Are we Supposed to Study Clinical Psychology?
Hi everyone,
I am an International student (Europe) who has fully studied in the UK. I have a BA (Hons) Psychology 2:1 from a UK Uni (not BPS accredited) and I recently also finished my MSc in Sport Psychology (Merit), also in the UK (BPS accredited).
Throughout my MSc studies in sport and exercise, I decided to follow the route of counselling, clinical psy and psychotherapy to further my studies and be more experienced/have a framework when dealing with clients.
For this reason, I started looking into PhD courses in Clinical Psychology. I found several appealing ClinPsyD courses that offer research and placement positions. However, to my surprise, it seems that all these positions require that you have serious clinical work already (a full year of working in psychotherapy settings and being a Chartered Member of the BPS).
During my BA and my MSc in the UK, we never had any sort of real practice. No patient-therapist training, no training on counselling real people, and no training into diagnosis/therapeutic techniques following specific schools of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT, Existential etc.) that would provide a framework when dealing with client's problems. Our main focus was always research methods, research methods, and statistics.
For that reason, I was expecting that clinical practice would be part of a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Perhaps by attending therapy sessions and watching experienced clinicians work with clients/patients, studying/exams, then taking on your own cases while being monitored by said experienced clinicians - all this being part of your 3-year full-time studies. To the contrary, it seems that all ClinPsyD courses want you to already be an expert (well, maybe not an expert, but definitely not an amateur) when it comes to clinical experience.
They tend to require a minimum of 12-months of full-time clinical experience in NHS-type settings/Healthcare Assistant/Assistant Psychologist and access to your own vehicle as it seems that you are expected to accept real work placements almost right away.
My question is: How do you go into a PhD in Clinical Psychology, when every Uni expects you to already have serious clinical experience? How are you going to have clinical experience when, during your BSc and your MSc, there was absolutely no training into therapy or therapy modalities? No face-to-face work between client and therapist? Are there any other alternatives?
Thanks
I am an International student (Europe) who has fully studied in the UK. I have a BA (Hons) Psychology 2:1 from a UK Uni (not BPS accredited) and I recently also finished my MSc in Sport Psychology (Merit), also in the UK (BPS accredited).
Throughout my MSc studies in sport and exercise, I decided to follow the route of counselling, clinical psy and psychotherapy to further my studies and be more experienced/have a framework when dealing with clients.
For this reason, I started looking into PhD courses in Clinical Psychology. I found several appealing ClinPsyD courses that offer research and placement positions. However, to my surprise, it seems that all these positions require that you have serious clinical work already (a full year of working in psychotherapy settings and being a Chartered Member of the BPS).
During my BA and my MSc in the UK, we never had any sort of real practice. No patient-therapist training, no training on counselling real people, and no training into diagnosis/therapeutic techniques following specific schools of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT, Existential etc.) that would provide a framework when dealing with client's problems. Our main focus was always research methods, research methods, and statistics.
For that reason, I was expecting that clinical practice would be part of a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Perhaps by attending therapy sessions and watching experienced clinicians work with clients/patients, studying/exams, then taking on your own cases while being monitored by said experienced clinicians - all this being part of your 3-year full-time studies. To the contrary, it seems that all ClinPsyD courses want you to already be an expert (well, maybe not an expert, but definitely not an amateur) when it comes to clinical experience.
They tend to require a minimum of 12-months of full-time clinical experience in NHS-type settings/Healthcare Assistant/Assistant Psychologist and access to your own vehicle as it seems that you are expected to accept real work placements almost right away.
My question is: How do you go into a PhD in Clinical Psychology, when every Uni expects you to already have serious clinical experience? How are you going to have clinical experience when, during your BSc and your MSc, there was absolutely no training into therapy or therapy modalities? No face-to-face work between client and therapist? Are there any other alternatives?
Thanks
Reply 1
No. You will need relevant clinical experience in order to even be eligible to apply and not have your form kicked straight out (and it's not a PhD for Clinical Psychologists, it is a DClinPsy). Your undergraduate and other taught courses are only the academic component, and you will need to demonstrate academic ability, research ability and clinical experience if you are called for interview.
You can read the background of successful DClinPsy applicants here. It goes way back, but it also incorporates recent trainees, so is an accurate idea of what you will need to be a viable candidate during the application season. https://www.clinpsy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145
You are right though that the DClinPsy does give you 3 years of specialist clinical experience and training in adult, child, older adult and Learning difficulty settings, where you are closely supervised and observe/ co work with clinicians. It is a full time vocational job and paid at a Band 6 NHS rate, but builds on the basics that you will have to learn prior to your admission onto a DClinPsy. I have supervised for my local course since 2010, and many of my recent trainees come from IAPT, nursing, OT, PhDs and other similar backgrounds and many have prior professions -it's not like applying to do a Masters straight from undergrad.
You can read the background of successful DClinPsy applicants here. It goes way back, but it also incorporates recent trainees, so is an accurate idea of what you will need to be a viable candidate during the application season. https://www.clinpsy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145
You are right though that the DClinPsy does give you 3 years of specialist clinical experience and training in adult, child, older adult and Learning difficulty settings, where you are closely supervised and observe/ co work with clinicians. It is a full time vocational job and paid at a Band 6 NHS rate, but builds on the basics that you will have to learn prior to your admission onto a DClinPsy. I have supervised for my local course since 2010, and many of my recent trainees come from IAPT, nursing, OT, PhDs and other similar backgrounds and many have prior professions -it's not like applying to do a Masters straight from undergrad.
As above, note that the PhD and the DClinPsy are entirely separate courses with separate aims. Only the DClinPsy will qualify you to become a practicing clinical psychologist. A PhD is a research degree (the research may or may not be clinical and it's primary aim is to train you in undertaking academic research, not in clinical work). You could well do a PhD before doing the DClinPsy (or the other way around) though.
Reply 3
Thank you both for the information. I know the difference between the PhD and the ClinPsyD and I know that I want to move into practicing clinical psychology, not go into research. That’s why I only mentioned looking into a ClinPsyD.
So the way I understand it is this. I need to somehow be employed for over a year in clinical settings to even have a chance to join a ClinPsyD, which does sound a little weird considering that I practically have no hands on experience in therapy from my studies. In my country, nobody would be hired for any position like that. You would actually have to pay for someone to “employ” you (so basically teach you). In my country, you finish your Psy studies, then move into a Clinical Psychology PhD, then you can be employed. Nobody would hire you straight out of a Psychology Bachelors as an undergrad to work with people, they think you are not qualified and possibly “dangerous,” which makes sense.
I’ll have a look at the link posted when I am back on my PC.
Thanks again!
So the way I understand it is this. I need to somehow be employed for over a year in clinical settings to even have a chance to join a ClinPsyD, which does sound a little weird considering that I practically have no hands on experience in therapy from my studies. In my country, nobody would be hired for any position like that. You would actually have to pay for someone to “employ” you (so basically teach you). In my country, you finish your Psy studies, then move into a Clinical Psychology PhD, then you can be employed. Nobody would hire you straight out of a Psychology Bachelors as an undergrad to work with people, they think you are not qualified and possibly “dangerous,” which makes sense.
I’ll have a look at the link posted when I am back on my PC.
Thanks again!
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 4
You don't get jobs doing therapy straight out of uni unless it is an on the job training job. Most people start in other roles to show that they have the skills to start training as part of probation.
You will need to check that you meet the academic requirements too, as you need a course that gives you the GBC for the BPS
You will need to check that you meet the academic requirements too, as you need a course that gives you the GBC for the BPS
Reply 5
Original post by InterStudentEU
In my country, you finish your Psy studies, then move into a Clinical Psychology PhD, then you can be employed. Nobody would hire you straight out of a Psychology Bachelors as an undergrad to work with people, they think you are not qualified and possibly “dangerous,” which makes sense.
It is the same here.
No one hires you to do the work of a psychologist straight out of undegraduate without prior experience. Typicially, your clinical experience is usually gathered in junior entry level roles such as support worker, HCA, support worker -jobs that often don't require a degree or any prior experience. Or you get a job as a research assistant on a clinical trial, where you get training to do whatever it is the trial does. Those roles give you clinical contact, engagement skills and socialise you to the world of clinical work and the NHS.
You then use that experience to get assistant posts or IAPT posts, which may be more therapeutic albeit closely supervised and limited. You use THAT experience to get onto a DClinPsy.
Reply 6
Original post by Lord Asriel
It is the same here.
No one hires you to do the work of a psychologist straight out of undegraduate without prior experience. Typicially, your clinical experience is usually gathered in junior entry level roles such as support worker, HCA, support worker -jobs that often don't require a degree or any prior experience. Or you get a job as a research assistant on a clinical trial, where you get training to do whatever it is the trial does. Those roles give you clinical contact, engagement skills and socialise you to the world of clinical work and the NHS.
You then use that experience to get assistant posts or IAPT posts, which may be more therapeutic albeit closely supervised and limited. You use THAT experience to get onto a DClinPsy.
No one hires you to do the work of a psychologist straight out of undegraduate without prior experience. Typicially, your clinical experience is usually gathered in junior entry level roles such as support worker, HCA, support worker -jobs that often don't require a degree or any prior experience. Or you get a job as a research assistant on a clinical trial, where you get training to do whatever it is the trial does. Those roles give you clinical contact, engagement skills and socialise you to the world of clinical work and the NHS.
You then use that experience to get assistant posts or IAPT posts, which may be more therapeutic albeit closely supervised and limited. You use THAT experience to get onto a DClinPsy.
Honestly, having experience with “people in human-service settings” or being an “assistant to a nurse” or an “assistant to the researcher” after your BSc hardly provides any relevant experience that would allow you to take on a ClinPsyD with placements and real work in the NHS. You still have no structured therapy modalities to follow.
It certainly is proof that you have social skills, but it has nothing to do with therapy or counseling.
Personally, I have been working in human-service settings (it’s the way it is worded in many “Entry Requirements” for ClinPsyD) for over 8 years. I have also worked as a Psychologist at a mental health hospital for 4 months. Yet, I still believe that these experiences are not enough. Yes, they have helped me. But without structured and proper supervision in therapy settings (face to face), you shouldn’t be taking placements right away when starting your doctorate. And it shouldn’t be a mandatory prerequisite. These skills should be taught during your ClinPsyD. You shouldn’t be expected to have them beforehand. Having “people experience in human service settings” or being a “lab assistant” for 12 months after your BSc means nothing, honestly.
Reply 7
Firstly, I am not sure why you are Have you looked at the thread I have posted earlier?
No one starts in "direct psychology" posts in the UK. You start working in a clinical setting doing non-psychology work. Then you often end up co-working with therapists and psychologists in future roles, assisting them with sub tasks and recieving supervision. Many will have worked in IAPT roles, where there is therapy training and supervision prior to applying. Assistant roles usually have a component of data collection and analysis, and administration to help with audit and other non clinical parts of a psychologists job. Then you end up getting trained to do specialist psychological interventions as part of your doctorate.
You also can't call yourself a Clinical Psychologist in this country without doing that doctoral level training (or recognised equivalent).
Also you are not considering that Clinical Psychology is a scientist practitioner training and not just therapy. Many of us work in neuropsychology, research, management, government and non-therapy settings. You should read "What is Clinical Psychology?" by Llewllyn and Murphy if you want a broader idea of what the role entails. If you just want to do therapy, you may wany to pick another route.
I also didn't set up the current system, so I am not sure why you are complaining at me, but if you really dislike the current UK clinical psychology training arrangement you may want to pursue your training in another country or in another psychology related discipline.
No one starts in "direct psychology" posts in the UK. You start working in a clinical setting doing non-psychology work. Then you often end up co-working with therapists and psychologists in future roles, assisting them with sub tasks and recieving supervision. Many will have worked in IAPT roles, where there is therapy training and supervision prior to applying. Assistant roles usually have a component of data collection and analysis, and administration to help with audit and other non clinical parts of a psychologists job. Then you end up getting trained to do specialist psychological interventions as part of your doctorate.
You also can't call yourself a Clinical Psychologist in this country without doing that doctoral level training (or recognised equivalent).
Also you are not considering that Clinical Psychology is a scientist practitioner training and not just therapy. Many of us work in neuropsychology, research, management, government and non-therapy settings. You should read "What is Clinical Psychology?" by Llewllyn and Murphy if you want a broader idea of what the role entails. If you just want to do therapy, you may wany to pick another route.
I also didn't set up the current system, so I am not sure why you are complaining at me, but if you really dislike the current UK clinical psychology training arrangement you may want to pursue your training in another country or in another psychology related discipline.
Reply 8
Original post by InterStudentEU
Honestly, having experience with “people in human-service settings” or being an “assistant to a nurse” or an “assistant to the researcher” after your BSc hardly provides any relevant experience that would allow you to take on a ClinPsyD with placements and real work in the NHS. You still have no structured therapy modalities to follow.
It certainly is proof that you have social skills, but it has nothing to do with therapy or counseling.
Personally, I have been working in human-service settings (it’s the way it is worded in many “Entry Requirements” for ClinPsyD) for over 8 years. I have also worked as a Psychologist at a mental health hospital for 4 months. Yet, I still believe that these experiences are not enough. Yes, they have helped me. But without structured and proper supervision in therapy settings (face to face), you shouldn’t be taking placements right away when starting your doctorate. And it shouldn’t be a mandatory prerequisite. These skills should be taught during your ClinPsyD. You shouldn’t be expected to have them beforehand. Having “people experience in human service settings” or being a “lab assistant” for 12 months after your BSc means nothing, honestly.
It certainly is proof that you have social skills, but it has nothing to do with therapy or counseling.
Personally, I have been working in human-service settings (it’s the way it is worded in many “Entry Requirements” for ClinPsyD) for over 8 years. I have also worked as a Psychologist at a mental health hospital for 4 months. Yet, I still believe that these experiences are not enough. Yes, they have helped me. But without structured and proper supervision in therapy settings (face to face), you shouldn’t be taking placements right away when starting your doctorate. And it shouldn’t be a mandatory prerequisite. These skills should be taught during your ClinPsyD. You shouldn’t be expected to have them beforehand. Having “people experience in human service settings” or being a “lab assistant” for 12 months after your BSc means nothing, honestly.
Your experience may very well be different to others but most would argue that experience as a support worker is invaluable experience for gaining an understanding of working in clinical settings. Likewise, it's not all about 'following therapy modalities', it's about learning how those with mental health difficulties live day to day and gaining an understanding of their individual needs alongside building empathy, compassion and resilience. As a HCA, I was always being asked to have 1:1 chats with patients and though they may not follow a formal intervention, they are still providing a space for a patient to express themselves or seek help and that will always be therapeutic.
I'd also argue that it is nigh on imppossible to gain an assistant psychologist post without some form of direct experience in a clinical setting and that most commonly comes from support work/HCA roles. They are certainly not to be snubbed and it's a shame that some view them as lesser roles when they are just as valuable as any qualified role in an MDT.
The general path to qualification is something along the lines of BSc, experience (paid or voluntary, plus potentially a masters), then completion of the professional doctorate. Every AP role will involve some form of supervision by a qualified professional, most commonly a psychologist.
To be brutally honest, someone entering onto the doctorate without any prior practical, clinical experience would be an absolute nightmare and basically impossible. They would certainly find it very difficult.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 9
Original post by InterStudentEU
Hi everyone,
I am an International student (Europe) who has fully studied in the UK. I have a BA (Hons) Psychology 2:1 from a UK Uni (not BPS accredited) and I recently also finished my MSc in Sport Psychology (Merit), also in the UK (BPS accredited).
Throughout my MSc studies in sport and exercise, I decided to follow the route of counselling, clinical psy and psychotherapy to further my studies and be more experienced/have a framework when dealing with clients.
For this reason, I started looking into PhD courses in Clinical Psychology. I found several appealing ClinPsyD courses that offer research and placement positions. However, to my surprise, it seems that all these positions require that you have serious clinical work already (a full year of working in psychotherapy settings and being a Chartered Member of the BPS).
During my BA and my MSc in the UK, we never had any sort of real practice. No patient-therapist training, no training on counselling real people, and no training into diagnosis/therapeutic techniques following specific schools of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT, Existential etc.) that would provide a framework when dealing with client's problems. Our main focus was always research methods, research methods, and statistics.
For that reason, I was expecting that clinical practice would be part of a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Perhaps by attending therapy sessions and watching experienced clinicians work with clients/patients, studying/exams, then taking on your own cases while being monitored by said experienced clinicians - all this being part of your 3-year full-time studies. To the contrary, it seems that all ClinPsyD courses want you to already be an expert (well, maybe not an expert, but definitely not an amateur) when it comes to clinical experience.
They tend to require a minimum of 12-months of full-time clinical experience in NHS-type settings/Healthcare Assistant/Assistant Psychologist and access to your own vehicle as it seems that you are expected to accept real work placements almost right away.
My question is: How do you go into a PhD in Clinical Psychology, when every Uni expects you to already have serious clinical experience? How are you going to have clinical experience when, during your BSc and your MSc, there was absolutely no training into therapy or therapy modalities? No face-to-face work between client and therapist? Are there any other alternatives?
Thanks
I am an International student (Europe) who has fully studied in the UK. I have a BA (Hons) Psychology 2:1 from a UK Uni (not BPS accredited) and I recently also finished my MSc in Sport Psychology (Merit), also in the UK (BPS accredited).
Throughout my MSc studies in sport and exercise, I decided to follow the route of counselling, clinical psy and psychotherapy to further my studies and be more experienced/have a framework when dealing with clients.
For this reason, I started looking into PhD courses in Clinical Psychology. I found several appealing ClinPsyD courses that offer research and placement positions. However, to my surprise, it seems that all these positions require that you have serious clinical work already (a full year of working in psychotherapy settings and being a Chartered Member of the BPS).
During my BA and my MSc in the UK, we never had any sort of real practice. No patient-therapist training, no training on counselling real people, and no training into diagnosis/therapeutic techniques following specific schools of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT, Existential etc.) that would provide a framework when dealing with client's problems. Our main focus was always research methods, research methods, and statistics.
For that reason, I was expecting that clinical practice would be part of a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Perhaps by attending therapy sessions and watching experienced clinicians work with clients/patients, studying/exams, then taking on your own cases while being monitored by said experienced clinicians - all this being part of your 3-year full-time studies. To the contrary, it seems that all ClinPsyD courses want you to already be an expert (well, maybe not an expert, but definitely not an amateur) when it comes to clinical experience.
They tend to require a minimum of 12-months of full-time clinical experience in NHS-type settings/Healthcare Assistant/Assistant Psychologist and access to your own vehicle as it seems that you are expected to accept real work placements almost right away.
My question is: How do you go into a PhD in Clinical Psychology, when every Uni expects you to already have serious clinical experience? How are you going to have clinical experience when, during your BSc and your MSc, there was absolutely no training into therapy or therapy modalities? No face-to-face work between client and therapist? Are there any other alternatives?
Thanks
Hi there,
I have to be honest here.
As you stated you fully studied in the UK with both under and post graduate courses, Im somewhat surprised you dont know this. Psychotherapy and Psychology (ists) are not protected terms and lots of people mislead online so be really careful there. But to be registered practitioners in either are different training and different modalities. It most certainly is not psychotherapist OR psychologist. There are lots of ways to be in therapeutic practice such as the IAPT courses.
Some countries do have academic blends and PhDs practicing but its not the norm. A PhD will allow you to become a charted psychologist with the BPS but as others have said it is a research degree. You may have lots of people you are interacting with, possibly helping but its under research, not clinical practice.
There are several professional doctorates in Europe/UK, they can be quite varied, some are literally PhDs with a different name for those already in practice and some are practicing doctorates, education, educational and clinical psychology for example. Thesis sizes vary across, a clinical psychology doctorate in the UK does include research as its needs to meet level 8 requirements, but the majority of the course in in placement/modules and comes with a salary.
The easiest comparison would be to that of Nursing, its a blended degree of academia and placements, that you need to pass and prove competence to move on, the difference is the level of knowledge required in the field. To qualify as a nurse it tends to be Level 6, the clinical psychology lowest half modules will be 7. Same process, just harder academically.
Nursing didnt use to be a degree and didnt require a dissertation. It will be no different in real terms to any undergraduate degree, however, the clinical psychologists do have to pass the Viva but the thesis (that can vary) is 16-20k in length whereas you PhD will be 65/70k.
Reply 10
Original post by InterStudentEU
Honestly, having experience with “people in human-service settings” or being an “assistant to a nurse” or an “assistant to the researcher” after your BSc hardly provides any relevant experience that would allow you to take on a ClinPsyD with placements and real work in the NHS. You still have no structured therapy modalities to follow.
It certainly is proof that you have social skills, but it has nothing to do with therapy or counseling.
Personally, I have been working in human-service settings (it’s the way it is worded in many “Entry Requirements” for ClinPsyD) for over 8 years. I have also worked as a Psychologist at a mental health hospital for 4 months. Yet, I still believe that these experiences are not enough. Yes, they have helped me. But without structured and proper supervision in therapy settings (face to face), you shouldn’t be taking placements right away when starting your doctorate. And it shouldn’t be a mandatory prerequisite. These skills should be taught during your ClinPsyD. You shouldn’t be expected to have them beforehand. Having “people experience in human service settings” or being a “lab assistant” for 12 months after your BSc means nothing, honestly.
It certainly is proof that you have social skills, but it has nothing to do with therapy or counseling.
Personally, I have been working in human-service settings (it’s the way it is worded in many “Entry Requirements” for ClinPsyD) for over 8 years. I have also worked as a Psychologist at a mental health hospital for 4 months. Yet, I still believe that these experiences are not enough. Yes, they have helped me. But without structured and proper supervision in therapy settings (face to face), you shouldn’t be taking placements right away when starting your doctorate. And it shouldn’t be a mandatory prerequisite. These skills should be taught during your ClinPsyD. You shouldn’t be expected to have them beforehand. Having “people experience in human service settings” or being a “lab assistant” for 12 months after your BSc means nothing, honestly.
"Honestly, having experience with “people in human-service settings” or being an “assistant to a nurse” or an “assistant to the researcher” after your BSc hardly provides any relevant experience that would allow you to take on a ClinPsyD with placements and real work in the NHS"
Do you really believe that? 😬
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