[Official thread] Hamas-Israel Conflict
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Original post by Zamestaneh
According to the Bible, the Jews conquered the lands from the natives after the exodus, so premising Israel on "right of return" is to mean they may return to lands that they conquered once upon a time - shoddy argument.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
Palestine is a term used to describe those living in the area that encompasses the Suez canal and most of modern day Israel. Palestinians encompassed a wide variety of religious persuasions including a majority of Muslims and a smaller proportion of Christians and Jews. They peacefully coexisted until around 1916 (during which it was still under occupation) when the British decided to "promise" the land to themselves, the Arabs and the jews simultaneously, each favouring one solution than another and just hoping that they would be able to play it off. When the ottoman empire collapsed the region that we now call Israel essentially came under de-facto British rule. Newly formed organisations that represented the Muslim and christian interests in the form of the PLO. The first intifada (literally "shaking off") was a struggle for independence (more than legitimised by centuries of rule and land ownership) by the PLO and associated Palestinian factions. The British decided to arm Jewish militias (approx 30% of the population) with extensive weaponry to put down the Palestinian uprising. This put power in the hands of the Jewish population and cemented their place as the power brokers within the region. Fast forward through several conflicts and Palestinian land was progressively shrunk down into a strip of land now known as the "Gaza Strip" which relies heavily on Israeli support for water, electricity, infrastructure, fuel and humanitarian aid. Personally speaking, this is a problem that was spawned by the British, having no clue how to handle it besides arming one faction that supported their "interests" over another that did not. The behemoth they created has created the polarised arena within the Middle East that they blame on radical groups to this day. Israel has a decades long record of human rights violations, mass incarceration, communal violence against innocent civilians, state-sponsored illegal settlements and an occupation of Palestinian land that is in contradiction of a United Nations Security Council resolution. I do not support the actions of Hamas in directly targeting civilians and children (if these reports are accurate, which I have no reason to believe they are not on the basis of conspiracy) but, on the other hand, I recognise the concerns of both sides to achieve their aims. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, nobody even recognises their sovereignty in the first place. Should the Jews have a hegemony over the land (which I believe they do to some extent) then the Palestinians do so too.
Original post by Zamestaneh
According to the Bible, the Jews conquered the lands from the natives after the exodus, so premising Israel on "right of return" is to mean they may return to lands that they conquered once upon a time - shoddy argument.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
Quote:
" And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely."
I'm a Saudi Arabian gay woman. Let me ask you a simple question: If the right to exist in a particular place on earth is, as you suggest, correlated by
(cf) longest period 'under control of any one religious group ' then since the Dutch and British Empires violently Christianised S Africa for
nearly 250 years. (the longest period it knew any religion) then your logic dictates it should have remained that way - you think Nelson Mandela should
only have been released if he had respected his Christian-apartheid captors? Do you think I, as a Saudi-born gay woman have no claim to live anywhere since I'm in a tiny minority ... should I be stateless?
You cannot hide your anti-Israel rhetoric under such a weak premise.
Do you support the two state solution, or do you believe in the elimination of Israel? I look forward to your thoughts.
Original post by Zamestaneh
According to the Bible, the Jews conquered the lands from the natives after the exodus, so premising Israel on "right of return" is to mean they may return to lands that they conquered once upon a time - shoddy argument.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that note the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that note the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely.
The British have no right to "give" something that was not theirs to others who have no right to it either.
I will not get over you justifying antisemitism towards Palestinians. People with your attitude are what create those who commit terrorism.
Victim blaming. The only people responsible for terrorism are the terrorist themselves.
Original post by Guru Jason
Victim blaming. The only people responsible for terrorism are the terrorist themselves.
Well said - Israel is responsible for the terrorism it has enacted and created against itself. It's nice to be on the same side for once.
Original post by mirzastargirl
Quote:
" And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely."
I'm a Saudi Arabian gay woman. Let me ask you a simple question: If the right to exist in a particular place on earth is, as you suggest, correlated by
(cf) longest period 'under control of any one religious group ' then since the Dutch and British Empires violently Christianised S Africa for
nearly 250 years. (the longest period it knew any religion) then your logic dictates it should have remained that way - you think Nelson Mandela should
only have been released if he had respected his Christian-apartheid captors? Do you think I, as a Saudi-born gay woman have no claim to live anywhere since I'm in a tiny minority ... should I be stateless?
You cannot hide your anti-Israel rhetoric under such a weak premise.
Do you support the two state solution, or do you believe in the elimination of Israel? I look forward to your thoughts.
" And the period of history under the control of any one religious group has been longer under Islam than Judaism, so on that from the Muslim Arabs of the levant/Palestine have greater claim to the area than Jews from different continents entirely."
I'm a Saudi Arabian gay woman. Let me ask you a simple question: If the right to exist in a particular place on earth is, as you suggest, correlated by
(cf) longest period 'under control of any one religious group ' then since the Dutch and British Empires violently Christianised S Africa for
nearly 250 years. (the longest period it knew any religion) then your logic dictates it should have remained that way - you think Nelson Mandela should
only have been released if he had respected his Christian-apartheid captors? Do you think I, as a Saudi-born gay woman have no claim to live anywhere since I'm in a tiny minority ... should I be stateless?
You cannot hide your anti-Israel rhetoric under such a weak premise.
Do you support the two state solution, or do you believe in the elimination of Israel? I look forward to your thoughts.
Key point: I specified natives to the area, not colonisers. Also, more importantly it has gone over your head that I am merely saying whichever arguments a pro-Israeli wants to use for "right of return" is actually an evidence against it from any angle. My point was not to appraise the rights of Palestinians to the land in of itself.
I am not hiding my anti-Israeli beliefs - I am openly anti-Zionist and believe it is an illegitimate state.
Though I believe a two state solution is an idealistic compromise, I no longer believe a two state solution is realistic, just as many zionists believe it is not realistic too, but I fall on the side that a pan-Arab/Islamic state which controls that land is better than an Israeli state existing.
Naturally, as a Muslim, I believe in the prophecies regarding the signs of the Hour, so the State of Israel will be defeated and crushed into the dust at some point anyway; one state, two state, no state - whatever will happen will happen.
Original post by mirzastargirl
I WITH TO DRAW THIS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE REPLY BY Zamestaneh TO THE ATTENTION OF MODERATORS:
IN HIS REPLY, HE ADMITS HE DIDN'T READ MY POST, IMMEDIATELY FORGETS THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND INSTEAD
SUBSTITUTES A DISGUSTING CHILDISH & OFFENSIVE ' USED TOILET PAPER' JOKE.
As a Saudi Arabian woman and serious-minded student I'm hoping you'll moderate his sneering and deliberately offensive reply.
IN HIS REPLY, HE ADMITS HE DIDN'T READ MY POST, IMMEDIATELY FORGETS THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND INSTEAD
SUBSTITUTES A DISGUSTING CHILDISH & OFFENSIVE ' USED TOILET PAPER' JOKE.
As a Saudi Arabian woman and serious-minded student I'm hoping you'll moderate his sneering and deliberately offensive reply.
If you have a genuine complaint about someone's post then use the report feature, but I can tell you right now that trying to publicly weaponise the moderators and derail a debate like this is absolutely against the rules.
Original post by StriderHort
If you have a genuine complaint about someone's post then use the report feature, but I can tell you right now that trying to publicly weaponise the moderators and derail a debate like this is absolutely against the rules.
She's new to the forum so probably doesn't know how this place works, bless her
Original post by mirzastargirl
I WITH TO DRAW THIS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE REPLY BY Zamestaneh TO THE ATTENTION OF MODERATORS:
IN HIS REPLY, HE ADMITS HE DIDN'T READ MY POST, IMMEDIATELY FORGETS THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND INSTEAD
SUBSTITUTES A DISGUSTING CHILDISH & OFFENSIVE ' USED TOILET PAPER' JOKE.
As a Saudi Arabian woman and serious-minded student I'm hoping you'll moderate his sneering and deliberately offensive reply.
IN HIS REPLY, HE ADMITS HE DIDN'T READ MY POST, IMMEDIATELY FORGETS THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND INSTEAD
SUBSTITUTES A DISGUSTING CHILDISH & OFFENSIVE ' USED TOILET PAPER' JOKE.
As a Saudi Arabian woman and serious-minded student I'm hoping you'll moderate his sneering and deliberately offensive reply.
This is a forum and what you said in your post was self contradictory, so I merely addressed it
As a British man with a 2000m Frosties swimming badge I'm hoping you'll see that it's not that deep
Original post by B7861
Guys quick question, correct me if I’m wrong. But why is there so much news coverage about Israel getting attacked. But it’s been happening to Palestine for ages?
Again correct me if I’m wrong before I get attacked 😅
Again correct me if I’m wrong before I get attacked 😅
There is a fair amount of media coverage of Israeli attack on Palestinians, particularly recently. Read more progressive news media like the Guardian for regular updates on Israeli settler behaviour, which is often deeply aggressive and violent towards Palestinian neighbours.
News media attention to the Hamas attacks is partly due to their unexpected nature (it's been a long time since Palestinians actively attacked Israel in force) and partly down to the cruelty of their assault on families and civilians.
No beheaded babies or rapes took place (this was misinformation).
As Tsun Tzu said:
"All warfare is based on deception."
"Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be
roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards."
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting."
Innocents were still killed no doubt but details are exacerbated in war (throw back to GCSE History propaganda examples of babies on German bayonets) in order to further dehumanise the enemy or delegitimise their real grievencs, all to further isolate them.
Israel has been doing this for years with its propaganda machine to make sure crimes and terror against Israelis and Jews is overreported, and crimes and terror against Palestinians is underreported, e.g. killing journalists, Mossad harassing pro-Palestinian activists abroad, using lobby groups and weaponising party funding and connections to attack the reputation of anyone who criticises Israel by conflating anti-zionism with antisemitism, positioning itself as a free country (though it is itself an antisemitic apartheid state), bombing the only media broadcasting building in Ghaza as it was "being used by Hamas" (without proof), etc.
Shaping public perception stripping the Palestinian cause of legimacy or sympathy is a key tool in the arsenal of Israel.
As Tsun Tzu said:
"All warfare is based on deception."
"Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be
roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards."
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting."
Innocents were still killed no doubt but details are exacerbated in war (throw back to GCSE History propaganda examples of babies on German bayonets) in order to further dehumanise the enemy or delegitimise their real grievencs, all to further isolate them.
Israel has been doing this for years with its propaganda machine to make sure crimes and terror against Israelis and Jews is overreported, and crimes and terror against Palestinians is underreported, e.g. killing journalists, Mossad harassing pro-Palestinian activists abroad, using lobby groups and weaponising party funding and connections to attack the reputation of anyone who criticises Israel by conflating anti-zionism with antisemitism, positioning itself as a free country (though it is itself an antisemitic apartheid state), bombing the only media broadcasting building in Ghaza as it was "being used by Hamas" (without proof), etc.
Shaping public perception stripping the Palestinian cause of legimacy or sympathy is a key tool in the arsenal of Israel.
Gaza's power plant is due to run out of power today and the Israelis aren't letting up, being stationed on the border to make sure their revenge blooms fully.
Original post by Zamestaneh
No beheaded babies or rapes took place (this was misinformation).
You know this how exactly? Both may be true or not, we don't have anything approaching proven fact yet, just reported statements of IDF soldiers and local civilians. However, it's incontestable that a large scale mass murder took place. They were all killed somehow or other.
Original post by mirzastargirl
I WITH TO DRAW THIS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE REPLY BY Zamestaneh TO THE ATTENTION OF MODERATORS:
Use the 'report' button to file complaints, shouting them in the thread doesn't achieve anything.
Original post by Kathy89
The message is strong.
Original post by Sorcerer of Old
The salty butthurt comments underneath really do make for some entertaining morning reading 
Yeah some of the comments are bad to put it mildly.
Original post by Zamestaneh
No beheaded babies or rapes took place (this was misinformation).
As Tsun Tzu said:
"All warfare is based on deception."
"Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be
roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards."
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting."
Innocents were still killed no doubt but details are exacerbated in war (throw back to GCSE History propaganda examples of babies on German bayonets) in order to further dehumanise the enemy or delegitimise their real grievencs, all to further isolate them.
Israel has been doing this for years with its propaganda machine to make sure crimes and terror against Israelis and Jews is overreported, and crimes and terror against Palestinians is underreported, e.g. killing journalists, Mossad harassing pro-Palestinian activists abroad, using lobby groups and weaponising party funding and connections to attack the reputation of anyone who criticises Israel by conflating anti-zionism with antisemitism, positioning itself as a free country (though it is itself an antisemitic apartheid state), bombing the only media broadcasting building in Ghaza as it was "being used by Hamas" (without proof), etc.
Shaping public perception stripping the Palestinian cause of legimacy or sympathy is a key tool in the arsenal of Israel.
As Tsun Tzu said:
"All warfare is based on deception."
"Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be
roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards."
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting."
Innocents were still killed no doubt but details are exacerbated in war (throw back to GCSE History propaganda examples of babies on German bayonets) in order to further dehumanise the enemy or delegitimise their real grievencs, all to further isolate them.
Israel has been doing this for years with its propaganda machine to make sure crimes and terror against Israelis and Jews is overreported, and crimes and terror against Palestinians is underreported, e.g. killing journalists, Mossad harassing pro-Palestinian activists abroad, using lobby groups and weaponising party funding and connections to attack the reputation of anyone who criticises Israel by conflating anti-zionism with antisemitism, positioning itself as a free country (though it is itself an antisemitic apartheid state), bombing the only media broadcasting building in Ghaza as it was "being used by Hamas" (without proof), etc.
Shaping public perception stripping the Palestinian cause of legimacy or sympathy is a key tool in the arsenal of Israel.
3 Hamas "militants" crossed over the border with Gaza and were intercepted by the IDF. Image shared by the IDF shows them lying on the ground with rifles after being killed by soldiers, they were posing. Turns out that an observatory satellite recorded the whole encounter, including the part where the IDF execute the "militants" while they're lying prone on the ground with their hands on their heads and no rifles in sight.
(edited 6 months ago)
Original post by mirzastargirl
Also there is an exit route to Egypt - the Palestinians are not trapped.
This is no longer true, nearby air strikes have forced Egypt to shut its border with Gaza.
Gaza's only power plant has now run out of fuel. If Israel continues its siege then most of Gaza's population will starve to death in the coming days. Will Israel then invade the flattened Gaza and absorb it into its own territory??
(edited 6 months ago)
Original post by Talkative Toad
Yeah some of the comments are bad to put it mildly.
Meh, looks like the OP of the tweet is unbothered and he's spitting facts tbh. Israel isn't going anywhere and that's simply the truth of the matter, and it also looks like Israel could pummel every other ME Muslim country into the dirt, that's how much stronger and superior it is. So I do think sooner or later a two state solution will have to be found.
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