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Thoughts on the current situation between Palestine and Israel?

I'm curious to know everyones thoughts on this here, are pro - palestine or pro - israel and why?

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Reply 2
I am pro-peace, therefore I'm anti-Hamas.
Reply 3
Original post by Quady
Blast both of them.

why?
Reply 4
Original post by Kathy89
I am pro-peace, therefore I'm anti-Hamas.

That does not make sense, there was no peace between Palestine and Israel before Hamas was even created.
Reply 5
Original post by F.A.
why?

It should go back to being British territory.
Reply 6
Original post by F.A.
That does not make sense, there was no peace between Palestine and Israel before Hamas was even created.

Hamas is the cause of that war, and many other conflicts before. I'm not saying Hamas is the only cause, but is the main one now.
Reply 7
Original post by Kathy89
Hamas is the cause of that war, and many other conflicts before. I'm not saying Hamas is the only cause, but is the main one now.

Which war?
Hams was only founded in 1987.
Reply 8
Original post by Quady
Which war?
Hams was only founded in 1987.

Now.
Before Hamas were other terrorist organizations. if you are talking about 1947-1949 war, please see my reply on #14 here :

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7421569&p=98964935&page=1#post98964935
Reply 9
Israel should not exceed its internationally agreed 1948 boundaries, and respect the sovereignty of surrounding states. Surrounding states should not attack Israel, and respect its sovereignty.
There. Problem solved.

("yeah, but Israel was set up illegally" etc applies to just about every nation on the planet in one way or another. At some point we just have to accept and respect established national borders. Otherwise, peace is impossible.)
Reply 10
Original post by 2WheelGod
Israel should not exceed its internationally agreed 1948 boundaries, and respect the sovereignty of surrounding states. Surrounding states should not attack Israel, and respect its sovereignty.
There. Problem solved.

("yeah, but Israel was set up illegally" etc applies to just about every nation on the planet in one way or another. At some point we just have to accept and respect established national borders. Otherwise, peace is impossible.)

The problem with part 1 is that most of the countries in the world already accepted the new boarders, and most of the surrounding countries are also OK with them, the main problem is a non-existent country that majority of the world cannot define their boarders claim the right for the whole land the majority of the world agree it theirs but also agree it's not theirs.

The same problem with Krym in Ukraine/Russia, but there both countries exist and have their boarders.
Reply 11
Original post by Kathy89
Hamas is the cause of that war, and many other conflicts before. I'm not saying Hamas is the only cause, but is the main one now.

Why do you think Hamas have an umbridge against Israel? I mean, you don't get peed off at someone for no reason whatsoever. Where do you think Hamas's angst comes from?
Reply 12
Original post by hotpud
Why do you think Hamas have an umbridge against Israel? I mean, you don't get peed off at someone for no reason whatsoever. Where do you think Hamas's angst comes from?

Sure, I mean even any abuse has a reason, rational or not it has a reason. The massacre*of October 7th is beyond any reason.
Reply 13
Original post by Kathy89
Sure, I mean even any abuse has a reason, rational or not it has a reason. The massacre*of October 7th is beyond any reason.

And of the massacre that has been ongoing since the 7th October?

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel if I turned up with my army and evicted you, your family and all your neighbours from your homes and gave them to my mates with no compensation to you, claiming that God had decreed it? Then sent you and your neighbours to a narrow strip of land complete cut off from everyone else you hold dear, put a massive fence around it, and told you that you couldn't leave, limited the supplies that were sent into that strip of land and periodically bombed, invaded and bulldozed your home down because I believed it was being used to create weapons? Do you not think that over a period of time you or your fellow neighbours might become radicalised by the pointless and desperate situation you found yourself in and conclude that you had nothing to lose by going on the rampage against me and those who support or participate in the society I stand for? Do you not think that being put in that situation wouldn't create a total and absolute hatred against those who were repressing you?

I appreciate that atrocities have been waged against Israel but the atrocities committed by Israel have always exceeded those it has received. In addition, Israel has used its influence in the financial sectors around the world to temper criticism and I note that the new weapon against detractors is that to criticise Israel is now antisemitic to some, the ultimate shut down.

The thing I find so difficult to grasp is that given the history of persecution of the Jews by various regimes throughout history, we now find ourselves in a situation where the boot is firmly on the other foot. Dare I say that Israel is on the cusp of committing genocide against the Gazan Arabs? It appears we are currently on around 15,000 dead and given the current tactics that doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-gaza-death-toll-soaring-us-unlikely-rethink-weapons-supplies-israel-2023-12-05/#:~:text=Gaza's%20health%20ministry%2C%20whose%20data,over%20eight%20weeks%20of%20warfare.
(edited 2 months ago)
Reply 14
Original post by hotpud
And of the massacre that has been ongoing since the 7th October?

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel if I turned up with my army and evicted you, your family and all your neighbours from your homes and gave them to my mates with no compensation to you, claiming that God had decreed it? Then sent you and your neighbours to a narrow strip of land complete cut off from everyone else you hold dear, put a massive fence around it, and told you that you couldn't leave, limited the supplies that were sent into that strip of land and periodically bombed, invaded and bulldozed your home down because I believed it was being used to create weapons? Do you not think that over a period of time you or your fellow neighbours might become radicalised by the pointless and desperate situation you found yourself in and conclude that you had nothing to lose by going on the rampage against me and those who support or participate in the society I stand for? Do you not think that being put in that situation wouldn't create a total and absolute hatred against those who were repressing you?

I appreciate that atrocities have been waged against Israel but the atrocities committed by Israel have always exceeded those it has received. In addition, Israel has used its influence in the financial sectors around the world to temper criticism and I note that the new weapon against detractors is that to criticise Israel is now antisemitic to some, the ultimate shut down.

The thing I find so difficult to grasp is that given the history of persecution of the Jews by various regimes throughout history, we now find ourselves in a situation where the boot is firmly on the other foot. Dare I say that Israel is on the cusp of committing genocide against the Gazan Arabs? It appears we are currently on around 15,000 dead and given the current tactics that doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-gaza-death-toll-soaring-us-unlikely-rethink-weapons-supplies-israel-2023-12-05/#:~:text=Gaza's%20health%20ministry%2C%20whose%20data,over%20eight%20weeks%20of%20warfare.

Gaza during the Mandatory Palestine was a central port city with all the infrastructures. Jews were settling in all of the Palastine land since the end of the 18th centaury (Othmans' era), even before it was called Paelstine by the British. By the 1940's the Jewish population grew rapidly and took more and more land. Not only from Arabs. Governments just gave them more land when they violantly took it from the people who where there before, arabs and other minorities as well. However, only in 1947 when the UN declared the division of Palestine to Jewish and Arab lends, Arabs attacked the Jewish settlements and were defeated, while Jews took even more land. On May 14th, 1948 when the Jewish state was declared all surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel and where defeated, Gaza was occupied by Israel.
So if there is anyone to blame for the begining of the conflict it is the British Mandatory Government, because Israel did not exist when that happened. If you want to blame Israel for occupying a territory during a war and than giving it back a few times during the history (1967, 1973), so it is Egypt's fault as much as the Israelis. However, giving the chance of founding their own country or at least govenment and peacefully negotiate returning to their land, they vote for one of two terrorist organizations. No one with an intention for a peaceful negitiation in future were even a contender. So even the peaceful innocent civilians don't really want a peaceful solution, or at least don't have the option to choose one. Therefore, it is their fault for their situation nowadays too. Just as it is our fault (the Israeli citizens) for the situation in Israel, because we chose Natanyahu.

To your first question... Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel and if they were given another chance to invade, kidnap, rape, kill and whatever they did there, they would do it again.
Hamas has to be destroyed for the sake of both Israelis and Palestinians alike.

I don't like the amount of innocent civilians dying in Gaza, but I don't see any other choice. Hamas made them stay and no country wants to take them for the risk of terror they may bring, finding other terrorist organizations etc... Egypt and Jordan accepted only a tiny bit of refugees. UAE, Saudia, Qatar and a few others don't want to risk Hamas refugees in their terretory, Europe is the same, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and their allies want as many innocent Palestinian dead as possible just to show how evil is Israel.
The situation is much more complexed that what you just claim it to be.
Reply 15
Original post by Kathy89
Gaza during the Mandatory Palestine was a central port city with all the infrastructures. Jews were settling in all of the Palastine land since the end of the 18th centaury (Othmans' era), even before it was called Paelstine by the British. By the 1940's the Jewish population grew rapidly and took more and more land. Not only from Arabs. Governments just gave them more land when they violantly took it from the people who where there before, arabs and other minorities as well. However, only in 1947 when the UN declared the division of Palestine to Jewish and Arab lends, Arabs attacked the Jewish settlements and were defeated, while Jews took even more land. On May 14th, 1948 when the Jewish state was declared all surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel and where defeated, Gaza was occupied by Israel.
So if there is anyone to blame for the begining of the conflict it is the British Mandatory Government, because Israel did not exist when that happened. If you want to blame Israel for occupying a territory during a war and than giving it back a few times during the history (1967, 1973), so it is Egypt's fault as much as the Israelis. However, giving the chance of founding their own country or at least govenment and peacefully negotiate returning to their land, they vote for one of two terrorist organizations. No one with an intention for a peaceful negitiation in future were even a contender. So even the peaceful innocent civilians don't really want a peaceful solution, or at least don't have the option to choose one. Therefore, it is their fault for their situation nowadays too. Just as it is our fault (the Israeli citizens) for the situation in Israel, because we chose Natanyahu.

To your first question... Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel and if they were given another chance to invade, kidnap, rape, kill and whatever they did there, they would do it again.
Hamas has to be destroyed for the sake of both Israelis and Palestinians alike.

I don't like the amount of innocent civilians dying in Gaza, but I don't see any other choice. Hamas made them stay and no country wants to take them for the risk of terror they may bring, finding other terrorist organizations etc... Egypt and Jordan accepted only a tiny bit of refugees. UAE, Saudia, Qatar and a few others don't want to risk Hamas refugees in their terretory, Europe is the same, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and their allies want as many innocent Palestinian dead as possible just to show how evil is Israel.
The situation is much more complexed that what you just claim it to be.

Exactly. So it is tit for tat.

So let's look at the truths.
Palestinians have caused atrocities against Israeli's
Israeli's have committed atrocities against Palestinians
Palestinians are stateless and effectively captive where they live.
Israel has legitimacy around the world, a modern army and plentiful resources.
Palestinians do not.
This is not a level playing field.

And you want me to sympathise with the horrors Israel is going through. Those horrors are nothing compared to what it must be like in Gazza right now.
(edited 2 months ago)
Reply 16
Original post by hotpud
Exactly. So it is tit for tat.

So let's look at the truths.
Palestinians have caused atrocities against Israeli's
Israeli's have committed atrocities against Palestinians
Palestinians are stateless and effectively captive where they live.
Israel has legitimacy around the world, a modern army and plentiful resources.
Palestinians do not.
This is not a level playing field.

And you want me to sympathise with the horrors Israel is going through. Those horrors are nothing compared to what it must be like in Gazza right now.

When it is not a level playing field, isn't it more rational to try to resolve things in a peaceful way?!
Isn't it more rational that a weaker side will not act violently against a stronger side for the sake of their own people?!

Hamas must be destroyed after what they did on October 7th. It is a war, and if Hamas uses innocent civilians as human shields, like they always do, innocent civilians would get hurt.

If you noticed, my previous reply was only historical facts, no side taken. Both sides are equally responsible for the situation, however, if Hamas was thinking and caring for their people they would not commit those horrific crimes they did on October 7th but would've tried to resolve the conflict in a peaceful way, what other countries, even Arab countries expect from them to do.
Reply 17
Original post by Kathy89
When it is not a level playing field, isn't it more rational to try to resolve things in a peaceful way?!
Isn't it more rational that a weaker side will not act violently against a stronger side for the sake of their own people?!

Hamas must be destroyed after what they did on October 7th. It is a war, and if Hamas uses innocent civilians as human shields, like they always do, innocent civilians would get hurt.

If you noticed, my previous reply was only historical facts, no side taken. Both sides are equally responsible for the situation, however, if Hamas was thinking and caring for their people they would not commit those horrific crimes they did on October 7th but would've tried to resolve the conflict in a peaceful way, what other countries, even Arab countries expect from them to do.

I quite agree. What sort of concessions do you think Israel should offer in return for not having missiles fired at it?

If you ask me Israel have played right into Hamas' hands.
Reply 18
Original post by hotpud
I quite agree. What sort of concessions do you think Israel should offer in return for not having missiles fired at it?

If you ask me Israel have played right into Hamas' hands.

I agree with your last part.

For your first part - NOTHING!!! Hamas should agree for the offers from many countries to help them building an infrastructure and economy for Gaza.
Reply 19
Original post by Kathy89
I agree with your last part.

For your first part - NOTHING!!! Hamas should agree for the offers from many countries to help them building an infrastructure and economy for Gaza.

And there be the problem. Israel takes the land. Israel imposes their will on Gaza. Israel builds a wall trapping Palestinians in. Israel prevents people from coming and going. Israel attempts to limit what goes into and out of Gazza, yet the concessions must come from Palestine.

I think that is called having your cake and eating it. Hamas has nothing to lose. Palestinians have a crappy life and again, not much to lose. If you have nothing to loose, why would you negotiate with your powerful neighbour who has everything but is prepared to offer nothing as a peace offering?

You have perfectly illustrated how Gazza is the melting pot for groups like Hamas. As we type, Israel in their quest to eliminate Hamas are creating recruits who will be radicalised by what they are currently witnessing in around their own homes that will ultimately see more Israeli's killed in cold blood just like on October 7th. If Israel want to stop the bloodshed of Israelis, they need to do something differently and in the world of peace, that usually means offering a meaningful concession. It means nothing for Palestine to stop firing rockets. Israel will do their bidding whether rockets are fired or not. The only people who can make a meaningful change is Israel.

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