Poorer students will now get 2 free years uni. another attack on middle income family
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Original post by TravelGuru
Except thats for the full maintenance grant. This thread is about something totally different.
Original post by jacketpotato
Per the statistics I linked to, these are the top 10% of earners. 10% of people earn 40k or more. You can't sensibly describe the richest 10% as being in the middle.
A family income of over 40K, I would describe as middle class. What would you describe them as?
Original post by jb9191
Its about time those who have parents on benefits stopped relying on the state for everything.
The fact is, middle class families put far more into the system through tax yet get a lot less out from it.
You get more freebies and handouts off the government if you're on benefits or on a lower income. Thus why so many live on benefits because of all the little hidden extras such as
1. University grants and 100% loan availability
2. Housing
3. JSA
4. Free insulation of their homes
Notice I haven't mentioned the disabled as they have no other choices.
The system now is discriminative towards the middle class, the new system they are proposing is like pulling the knife out and sticking it in another ten times.
The fact is, middle class families put far more into the system through tax yet get a lot less out from it.
You get more freebies and handouts off the government if you're on benefits or on a lower income. Thus why so many live on benefits because of all the little hidden extras such as
1. University grants and 100% loan availability
2. Housing
3. JSA
4. Free insulation of their homes
Notice I haven't mentioned the disabled as they have no other choices.
The system now is discriminative towards the middle class, the new system they are proposing is like pulling the knife out and sticking it in another ten times.
This. Precisely this!
Original post by WelshBluebird
Except thats for the full maintenance grant. This thread is about something totally different.
Well since the government is still proposing these changes and they haven't actually become legislation yet everything is speculation. I was giving an example to what currently exists. Are you looking for an argument?
Original post by CyclopsRock
You declaration that my post was a strawman appears to hinge totally on the idea that the funding of poorer people has an "equal" and opposite effect, but I don't know where you got that bit from.
No, I think you're confused. You didn't imply that; someone else did, which is what I was addressing, which is why your response to me was a strawman - you brought in taxation issues when what I was addressing was clearly a direct issue of jealousy, not a legitimate complaint about the distribution of tax money.
Original post by TravelGuru
Well since the government is still proposing these changes and they haven't actually become legislation yet everything is speculation. I was giving an example to what currently exists. Are you looking for an argument?
No need to be aggressive about it.
You stated pretty clearly that the threshold for this new policy will be £25,000 a year. When I question that, you get arsey. Depsite not having any proof at all, and then admitted that its all speculation.
As I said, I am pretty damn sure the cut off will be a lot lower. The reporting seems to equal it with free school meals, and the threshold for those is a lot less than 25k.
Original post by .Ali.
A family income of over 40K, I would describe as middle class. What would you describe them as?
While class isn't all about income, I would certainly say the top 10% of earners are upper class.
Original post by Planto
How the hell is this an attack on "middle income families"? Nothing has changed for you. There is no disadvantage to you here. Unless you consider poor people to be your enemy, of course. Helping someone out is not attacking everyone else.
Because that money could be used to lower fees for everyone?
Original post by WelshBluebird
No need to be aggressive about it.
You stated pretty clearly that the threshold for this new policy will be £25,000 a year. When I question that, you get arsey. Depsite not having any proof at all, and then admitted that its all speculation.
As I said, I am pretty damn sure the cut off will be a lot lower. The reporting seems to equal it with free school meals, and the threshold for those is a lot less than 25k.
While class isn't all about income, I would certainly say the top 10% of earners are upper class.
You stated pretty clearly that the threshold for this new policy will be £25,000 a year. When I question that, you get arsey. Depsite not having any proof at all, and then admitted that its all speculation.
As I said, I am pretty damn sure the cut off will be a lot lower. The reporting seems to equal it with free school meals, and the threshold for those is a lot less than 25k.
While class isn't all about income, I would certainly say the top 10% of earners are upper class.
I agree with you on the point that class isn't all about income. So, you think any family with an income of 40K higher (providing they fit the other criteria) is upper class?
I'd have said that was normal, but okay...(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by jb9191
Its about time those who have parents on benefits stopped relying on the state for everything.
The fact is, middle class families put far more into the system through tax yet get a lot less out from it.
The fact is, middle class families put far more into the system through tax yet get a lot less out from it.
I'd be interested to know why you feel that children from privileged backgrounds who sponge off mum and dad are any more deserving of their wealth than those from poorer backgrounds whose upbringings are funded by benefits - regardless of the reasons for those benefits.
Yes, perhaps the former's parents have done more to earn the money, but the children certainly haven't. There are a lot of people on this forum who hold a very brattish sense of entitlement and an ironic disdain for those who receive state funding, in spite of the fact that they remain more privileged and have done precisely nothing to earn it.
I fear for the future of this country. So many people tainted by Red/Blue/Left/Right. Its like a political war of bloods vs crips.
Every student, regardless of income, should be entitled to the same financial help. 100% of the maintenance loan. It has to be paid back anyway.
Look how English students are livid because they may have to pay more than Welsh. Do you think that is fair?
Look how middle class students get less loan because their parents earn more? is that fair?
No! In both cases its discrimination.
1. Discrimination of Nationality.
2. Discrimination of Class.
Tell the SLC, I'll see their asses in court.
Every student, regardless of income, should be entitled to the same financial help. 100% of the maintenance loan. It has to be paid back anyway.
Look how English students are livid because they may have to pay more than Welsh. Do you think that is fair?
Look how middle class students get less loan because their parents earn more? is that fair?
No! In both cases its discrimination.
1. Discrimination of Nationality.
2. Discrimination of Class.
Tell the SLC, I'll see their asses in court.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by WelshBluebird
No need to be aggressive about it.
You stated pretty clearly that the threshold for this new policy will be £25,000 a year. When I question that, you get arsey. Depsite not having any proof at all, and then admitted that its all speculation.
As I said, I am pretty damn sure the cut off will be a lot lower. The reporting seems to equal it with free school meals, and the threshold for those is a lot less than 25k.
While class isn't all about income, I would certainly say the top 10% of earners are upper class.
You stated pretty clearly that the threshold for this new policy will be £25,000 a year. When I question that, you get arsey. Depsite not having any proof at all, and then admitted that its all speculation.
As I said, I am pretty damn sure the cut off will be a lot lower. The reporting seems to equal it with free school meals, and the threshold for those is a lot less than 25k.
While class isn't all about income, I would certainly say the top 10% of earners are upper class.
I'm hardly being aggressive, I merely asked if you were looking for an argument. If you think that is aggressive then you seriously need to learn some skills on deduction since you are the one being easily offended and using terms such as "arsey" - very nice btw.
No need to repeat my aforementioned, so re-read my previous post in reply to your second comment.
Please don't post any more snobbish comments as I feel you are looking for an argument, as is always the way on TSR *sigh*.
Original post by WelshBluebird
...
Original post by .Ali.
...
I get the feeling that only one of you two is actually talking about household income.
Original post by .Ali.
I agree with you on the point that class isn't all about income. So, you think any family with an income of 40K higher (providing they fit the other criteria) is upper class? I'd have said that was normal, but okay...
I'd have said that was normal, but okay...No, he's wrong, anyone earning 40K a year is most certainly not upper class. Perhaps not even middle.
Original post by Planto
I get the feeling that only one of you two is actually talking about household income.
Yeah I was wondering that too...I'm on about household, as that is what ultimately affects the means testing for things like maintainance grants.
Original post by Planto
I get the feeling that only one of you two is actually talking about household income.
lol, correct. Sorry, I missed the family bit.
£40,000 for a family, would not be upper class. £40,000 for a person would put them in the top 10% though.
Original post by TravelGuru
No, he's wrong, anyone earning 40K a year is most certainly not upper class. Perhaps not even middle.
I'd say deffinatlely middle (well it depends on overall household, but usually), but in no way upper! I don't understand how you could say that was upper class lol?
Original post by Planto
No, I think you're confused. You didn't imply that; someone else did, which is what I was addressing, which is why your response to me was a strawman - you brought in taxation issues when what I was addressing was clearly a direct issue of jealousy, not a legitimate complaint about the distribution of tax money.
I didn't see that implication. I think the person's complaint was that middle income families get taxed and taxed but all the "give backs" they received are being removed, and other groups are getting more given to them. Unless I've missed a post (and If I have, please show me - that's not a snotty comment, I mean it, I may well have missed it), I don't see what bit of that implies an equal harming to them. But, rather, it seems like general dissatisfaction and the idea that they are continuously getting less and less for their money. That's very much a legitimate complaint about the distribution of tax money, even if the OP doesn't necessarily think of it in those terms.
Original post by .Ali.
They'll help me pay off the loan and accomodation (I think), but so what? They can afford their own children...
So... you'd be paying less? Double standards much?
Yes, I am. And it depends what type of disability. Usually, no, I don't mind. If it's someone milking something minor, than yeah I would. Lol school dinners are horrible anyway! 
That's not the point though.
That's not the point though.Can you not see the similarities here? They have a disadvantage, and that disadvantage is being slightly alleviated. I can guarantee you, that it's unlikely 18,000 will be going to £9,000 schools. More people get AAA at Eton than people on free schools meals do.
If you can't see the long term benefits, than that's your problem.
Long term benefits of what exactly?
I understand what you're saying, but the bottom line is it's not fair. Why should the same product (in this case, Uni course) from the same provider cost more for me?
Original post by Plonk
The level of debt puts off people from poorer families, and this policy may reverse that effect, or at least stop this "I can't go to university now" idea. I would actually rather this money was used to increase grants for everyone, and not as an attempt to calm people down. So we don't completely disagree.
So surely the government should be convincing them that university is still a viable option rather than just throwing money around. If poorer people are put off by something that is actually untrue, why not just dispel the myths?
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