Why Tony Blair is speaking common sense on EU reform?
Tony Blair has urged European leaders to reform the EU so British people "change their mind" about Brexit.
Tony Blair, known for taking Britain into an illegal war in the middle east; known for his policy of mass "uncontrolled" immigration; known for creating tuition fees; known for being the EU's dog but what he isn't known for is his economic success of the UK.
He changed UK politics entirely and for the first time leading a government that were entirely to the centre, he prospered in creating an ideal environment for the working class, he almost entirely destroyed the in-work just about managing (which the conservatives don't seem to give a s**t about) but never is this ever mentioned by the biased media who highlight the one or two mistakes during his reign which every PM makes.
Now, he is campaigning for a soft Brexit, a Brexit that the common sense want and the foolish loath. Yet he speaks the truth and people continue to discredit him, they hound him for being anti-democratic when he has claimed excessively that he respects the democratic decision of Britain. So what does he want?
Tony Blair has called for reform of the EU, reform of the immigration policies that made the British people vote leave. People may argue this but the truth is immigration was the main reason people voted leave, Tony Blair has called for the EU to reform the freedom of movement aspect of the single market and calls for a second referendum on the final deal.
Speaking to the BBC , he said: "I find it not just disappointing but sickening that people should really be prepared to sacrifice peace in Northern Ireland on the altar of Brexit."
Leaving the EU is terrible for our economy, leaving the EU means expensive tariff on all goods, bar what Nigel Farage says, countries aren't lining up to do trade deals with us.
Leaving the EU means years without trade partners and ally's and the threat of being Isolated as a small island and yet turned into a low wage tax haven on the edge of Europe.
#SaveTheEconomy
#Stop Brexit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43241776
Tony Blair, known for taking Britain into an illegal war in the middle east; known for his policy of mass "uncontrolled" immigration; known for creating tuition fees; known for being the EU's dog but what he isn't known for is his economic success of the UK.
He changed UK politics entirely and for the first time leading a government that were entirely to the centre, he prospered in creating an ideal environment for the working class, he almost entirely destroyed the in-work just about managing (which the conservatives don't seem to give a s**t about) but never is this ever mentioned by the biased media who highlight the one or two mistakes during his reign which every PM makes.
Now, he is campaigning for a soft Brexit, a Brexit that the common sense want and the foolish loath. Yet he speaks the truth and people continue to discredit him, they hound him for being anti-democratic when he has claimed excessively that he respects the democratic decision of Britain. So what does he want?
Tony Blair has called for reform of the EU, reform of the immigration policies that made the British people vote leave. People may argue this but the truth is immigration was the main reason people voted leave, Tony Blair has called for the EU to reform the freedom of movement aspect of the single market and calls for a second referendum on the final deal.
Speaking to the BBC , he said: "I find it not just disappointing but sickening that people should really be prepared to sacrifice peace in Northern Ireland on the altar of Brexit."
Leaving the EU is terrible for our economy, leaving the EU means expensive tariff on all goods, bar what Nigel Farage says, countries aren't lining up to do trade deals with us.
Leaving the EU means years without trade partners and ally's and the threat of being Isolated as a small island and yet turned into a low wage tax haven on the edge of Europe.
#SaveTheEconomy
#Stop Brexit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43241776
Original post by alextheowl
I doubt that the EU would actually consider reforming their immigration policy to the extent most Brexiteers would like.
You seem to be suggesting that member states in the EU are actively encouraging people to come to Europe? Why would they do that? I was never under the understanding that that was the case.
But if half a million people land on your shore with no papers, just exactly what do you do with them? Put them back in their rubber dinghy?
Original post by ByEeek
You seem to be suggesting that member states in the EU are actively encouraging people to come to Europe? Why would they do that? I was never under the understanding that that was the case.
But if half a million people land on your shore with no papers, just exactly what do you do with them? Put them back in their rubber dinghy?
But if half a million people land on your shore with no papers, just exactly what do you do with them? Put them back in their rubber dinghy?
I honestly have no clue how you inferred that from what I just said, but alright.
What in the history of the EU leads you to believe that it is in any way capable of reform?
Look at the EU - it's like the IOC or FIFA - completely oblivious to any concept of a problem. No matter how bad or corrupt it is, they will never reform. They simply seek to destroy those that criticize them. To the very end, Sepp Blatter denied that there was any problem in FIFA. Do you see Verhofstadt or Barnier or Juncker acting any differently?
Only a couple of weeks ago, Juncker declared that the idea that they wanted a European Super State was "nonsense". Everyone knows that this has been their stated aim for decades. It's so obvious it doesn't need stating - yet they barefacedly deny it. They gerrymander votes that go against them, they meddle with the internal politics and jurisprudence of member states. They want complete control over the economies of member states, as well as their borders. Now they want military control.... on what planet are they not constantly vying for more and more political power? Why on earth would they reform when they have millions of cheerleaders ready to lay down their lives in defence of the EU?
Look at the EU - it's like the IOC or FIFA - completely oblivious to any concept of a problem. No matter how bad or corrupt it is, they will never reform. They simply seek to destroy those that criticize them. To the very end, Sepp Blatter denied that there was any problem in FIFA. Do you see Verhofstadt or Barnier or Juncker acting any differently?
Only a couple of weeks ago, Juncker declared that the idea that they wanted a European Super State was "nonsense". Everyone knows that this has been their stated aim for decades. It's so obvious it doesn't need stating - yet they barefacedly deny it. They gerrymander votes that go against them, they meddle with the internal politics and jurisprudence of member states. They want complete control over the economies of member states, as well as their borders. Now they want military control.... on what planet are they not constantly vying for more and more political power? Why on earth would they reform when they have millions of cheerleaders ready to lay down their lives in defence of the EU?
I like John Major a lot.
Original post by Trinculo
What in the history of the EU leads you to believe that it is in any way capable of reform?
Look at the EU - it's like the IOC or FIFA - completely oblivious to any concept of a problem. No matter how bad or corrupt it is, they will never reform. They simply seek to destroy those that criticize them. To the very end, Sepp Blatter denied that there was any problem in FIFA. Do you see Verhofstadt or Barnier or Juncker acting any differently?
Only a couple of weeks ago, Juncker declared that the idea that they wanted a European Super State was "nonsense". Everyone knows that this has been their stated aim for decades. It's so obvious it doesn't need stating - yet they barefacedly deny it. They gerrymander votes that go against them, they meddle with the internal politics and jurisprudence of member states. They want complete control over the economies of member states, as well as their borders. Now they want military control.... on what planet are they not constantly vying for more and more political power? Why on earth would they reform when they have millions of cheerleaders ready to lay down their lives in defence of the EU?
Look at the EU - it's like the IOC or FIFA - completely oblivious to any concept of a problem. No matter how bad or corrupt it is, they will never reform. They simply seek to destroy those that criticize them. To the very end, Sepp Blatter denied that there was any problem in FIFA. Do you see Verhofstadt or Barnier or Juncker acting any differently?
Only a couple of weeks ago, Juncker declared that the idea that they wanted a European Super State was "nonsense". Everyone knows that this has been their stated aim for decades. It's so obvious it doesn't need stating - yet they barefacedly deny it. They gerrymander votes that go against them, they meddle with the internal politics and jurisprudence of member states. They want complete control over the economies of member states, as well as their borders. Now they want military control.... on what planet are they not constantly vying for more and more political power? Why on earth would they reform when they have millions of cheerleaders ready to lay down their lives in defence of the EU?
The EU whether you believe it or not wants the best deal for the UK and all the other 26 nations of the EU even Emanuel Macron said that the EU could compromise on the single market.
So Tony Blair is clever he wants reformed immigration and single market access to encourage free trade, which Theresa May is oblivious to because her Brexit team cannot negotitate anything so when they come back with no deal they will claim that the EU "forced them" that is the point of negotiations.
On your claim about an EU army is absolutely false it is a propagandised argument made by the Leave campaign that lacked substance and evidence. It is your choice whether you wan to believe them.
Original post by The PoliticalGuy
The EU whether you believe it or not wants the best deal for the UK and all the other 26 nations of the EU even Emanuel Macron said that the EU could compromise on the single market.
So Tony Blair is clever he wants reformed immigration and single market access to encourage free trade, which Theresa May is oblivious to because her Brexit team cannot negotitate anything so when they come back with no deal they will claim that the EU "forced them" that is the point of negotiations.
On your claim about an EU army is absolutely false it is a propagandised argument made by the Leave campaign that lacked substance and evidence. It is your choice whether you wan to believe them.
So Tony Blair is clever he wants reformed immigration and single market access to encourage free trade, which Theresa May is oblivious to because her Brexit team cannot negotitate anything so when they come back with no deal they will claim that the EU "forced them" that is the point of negotiations.
On your claim about an EU army is absolutely false it is a propagandised argument made by the Leave campaign that lacked substance and evidence. It is your choice whether you wan to believe them.
They want to damage Britain as much as possible. It's their own words. Of course they do - they're desperate for Britain to get the worst deal possible and they're hoping we fail - they need to prevent anyone leaving and collapsing the whole project.
People like Macron - they have their national interest to consider, of course they're going to at some point be conciliatory. It's the hardliners like Verhofstadt, Junckers and Barnier who want to damage Britain.
As for the EU Army - are you saying it was all made up and there was never a move for an EU Army?
This is absurd. How can anyone claim that this is "Leave Propaganda"? It's already happened. As soon as Art 50 was invoked, the EU knew that there was nothing (i.e. Britain) stopping the signing of PESCO. The EU is going beyond even an Army - they want joing control of defence industries. This is not propaganda - this is in the EU's own words of their own defence ministers and officials.
Of course - there are always people who will refuse to believe in such things. There's no way the EU would ever be considering an Army or Joint Defence Procurement. They are going to compel member states to spend minimums of defence. That's what 23 nations signed it in last year, the EU has a complete military structure, a defence minister and its own generals and admirals. These are the sort of things you have when you don't have an Army.
So to be clear - the EU now has control over member states:
Monetary policy
Limited Fiscal policy
Immigration and borders
Courts
Defence Spending
Agriculture, food, fisheries
An almost unlimited amount of business regulation
Juncker has already said he wants a Federal Europe, an EU Army and a single EU President (rather than the 3-4 they have now). He wants to get rid of national MEPs - so that the MEP you vote for (well not us, as we're going) would be unconnected to the individual member state.
On what planet, in what universe is this not the EU Superstate that we have been assured time and time again was never going to happen?
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Trinculo
They want to damage Britain as much as possible. It's their own words. Of course they do - they're desperate for Britain to get the worst deal possible and they're hoping we fail
You say that like it's an unreasonable position to take? Even if they did (which I'm not saying they do) take that position they have every right to jam their knife in Britains gut and twist - just like we're trying to do to them.
Original post by Napp
You say that like it's an unreasonable position to take? Even if they did (which I'm not saying they do) take that position they have every right to jam their knife in Britains gut and twist - just like we're trying to do to them.
I'm not saying it's necessarily unreasonable - only that there are EUrophiles who are saying it's not happening and are flatly denying that the EU is trying to damage us.
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
Original post by Trinculo
I'm not saying it's necessarily unreasonable - only that there are EUrophiles who are saying it's not happening and are flatly denying that the EU is trying to damage us.
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
Even when we leave the Eu, our prosperity means prosperity for the Eu even the most hardline leavers like Nigel Farage want some sort of trade deal with the EU because that is the most beneficial. The same goes for the Eu.
The Eu has a billion £ trading deficit and obviously wants to trade more, so the Eu should and would be willing to compromise as what Tony Blair said. This isn't about an Eu army or undemocratic bigots in charge of us but rather getting the best deal for the UK.
Original post by Trinculo
I'm not saying it's necessarily unreasonable - only that there are EUrophiles who are saying it's not happening and are flatly denying that the EU is trying to damage us.
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess, the one thing I do tend to agree with trump on is that trade tends to be more zero sum than not. In the case of the eu talks it most certainly is shaping up that way
Probably because that's how all clubs work - only the dullest sort of person would expect to be treated better outside than in... especially after we called them nazis, a dictatorship, were racist to most every one of them and have tried to damage their economies. By literally every measure Britain is in the wrong here.
Original post by Trinculo
I'm not saying it's necessarily unreasonable - only that there are EUrophiles who are saying it's not happening and are flatly denying that the EU is trying to damage us.
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
It's also the whole idea of our membership in the first place - why would we want to be in a club that behaves like this?
I think there is a great deal of difference between the eu and the member states of the eu.
The eu is the pre-deal entity the member states will be the post-deal entity.
Pre-deal it is understandable that the eu will want to talk tough with the member states' blessing (up to a point) but post-deal the member states will want to continue trading with the UK on terms that are not too onerous (and do not stop the flow the exports to us).
I think it is understandable that the eu will play the bad guy for now but I have no doubt that we will have a decent trading arrangement and good relations once the deal has been signed.
Original post by Kenneth56
I think there is a great deal of difference between the eu and the member states of the eu.
The eu is the pre-deal entity the member states will be the post-deal entity.
Pre-deal it is understandable that the eu will want to talk tough with the member states' blessing (up to a point) but post-deal the member states will want to continue trading with the UK on terms that are not too onerous (and do not stop the flow the exports to us).
I think it is understandable that the eu will play the bad guy for now but I have no doubt that we will have a decent trading arrangement and good relations once the deal has been signed.
The eu is the pre-deal entity the member states will be the post-deal entity.
Pre-deal it is understandable that the eu will want to talk tough with the member states' blessing (up to a point) but post-deal the member states will want to continue trading with the UK on terms that are not too onerous (and do not stop the flow the exports to us).
I think it is understandable that the eu will play the bad guy for now but I have no doubt that we will have a decent trading arrangement and good relations once the deal has been signed.
Could be.
But say you're the EU. You can't afford any more big players leaving. If they see Britain having a good deal out of the EU, then why what's the disincentive for others to leave?
Original post by Trinculo
Could be.
But say you're the EU. You can't afford any more big players leaving. If they see Britain having a good deal out of the EU, then why what's the disincentive for others to leave?
But say you're the EU. You can't afford any more big players leaving. If they see Britain having a good deal out of the EU, then why what's the disincentive for others to leave?
I agree and for now, the eu and the member states are putting up a united front.
Most of the mainstream media is also playing this game by declining to dig for divisions between member states (while playing up divisions in the UK government).
However, although right now the unelected forces (MSM/eu commission/large corporates/civil services/charities/quangoes etc) have the upper hand, as we get to the end of the negotiations, the democratic forces represented by member states - and their parliaments, will start to flex their muscles and will no doubt attempt to ensure that their populations do not lose out due to restrictions on exports to the UK.
This may indeed result in one or two leaving the eu or seeking a new relationship.
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