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Sanctions for ESA claimants. Tories targetting disabled people again. Watch

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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    One of my mates went into hospital with a collapsed lung, while on a workfare placement. When he returned to placement the boss told him he was "going to make his life hell" for skipping his unpaid work.

    This system is deliberately and cunningly rotten to it's very core and it's disgusting to see how little everyone cares. People simply smile that they pay less in tax and walk on. I have no time for people who vote conservative and turn a blind eye to this.
    The truth is the vast majority of people seem to be entirely unaware of the true state of affairs at the moment. Anything to do with the current fiasco and suffering under IDS has been kept out of the media.


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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    Yes, because ATOS is definitely right is all cases... Many people don't have the energy to appeal.
    But we aren't considering those who don't appeal or those who appeal and win but the thousands who appeal and lose every year.

    In the year 2012/3 128,000 people appealed and lost (all conditions). That is a hell of a lot of people who fought the whole way but were still found fit to work.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Evidence please. Thousands upon thousands of claimants with mental health issues fail the Work Capability Assessment every year. Many of those appeal. The success rate on appeals is around 40% (all conditions). That would indicate that there are thousands of people with mental health conditions who can work but don't.
    @nulli tertius
    "Evidence please".


    Ok sure. Lets name some disabilities which are so bad that the people that have them cannot work.


    1. Schizophrenia.


    Even with 50mg of tranquilizer & various medications a person of this kind cannot perform any reasonable kind of work in this modern age. Why? Because the effect of such medications make them ultra drowsy & intoxicated.


    The idea that someone with Schizophrenia could work as a Driver, a Cook or a Tele-sales advisor is just down right shameful. Yet Tories on this forum have forwarded the idea.


    2. Personality Disorder.


    Narcissistic, Anti-Social, Shizotypal & Borderline. These are some of the worst ones.
    Lets take Borderline first. BPD.


    BPD is where multiple personalities exist in one human being. A person can go from plain old normal to ultra aggressive in one mood shift. Then they can turn to an avoidant person who is withdrawn then switch to the most outgoing person your ever meet.


    Anti-Social. This kind of person really doesn't care about anyone or anything. They will rob, murder, rape and laugh about it. Most of these people are in jail. Enough said.


    Shizotypal. This is the kind where a person has delusions all the time. Similar to Schizophrenia. However they are excessively aggressive about their delusions since they attach wrong meanings to everything in daily life or think a person is out to kill them.


    Narcissistic. This is the worst personality disorder of all time. Narc's don't really care about people full stop other than their own selfish needs. They will exploit people to the max. Narc's can exist in the work place if they are high level-sociopaths but if they have a combined personality disorder then the chance is not likely and more like down right dangerous.


    For example.


    Narcissist + Anti-Social = Serial Killer.
    Narcissist + Shizotypal = Cult leader.
    Narcissist + BPD = Random personality capable of anything!


    ................................ ................................ ................................


    @Nulli tertius


    Now moving onto the Work Capability Assessment.


    Quit munching on the status quo rubbish. We know and you also know that the ESA WCA is at best a questionnaire which is filled in by a customer service adviser. It doesn't matter if the person filling in the questionnaire is a noble prize winning doctor. They are not allowed to deviate from the nature of the questionnaire.


    For example. Lets say someone has a oncoming hole in their heart. There are no questions in the WCA that relate to this so the customer service adviser will not ask any questions relating to a human beings vital organs; instead questions like where you able to walk 50 meters will be asked.


    If your inclined to politically prove me and my comrades wrong then take it upon yourself to find a question in the WCA that talks about heart problems.


    Here is a link to the WCA questions. Off you go.
    http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/emp...t-the-esa-test
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But we aren't considering those who don't appeal or those who appeal and win but the thousands who appeal and lose every year.

    In the year 2012/3 128,000 people appealed and lost (all conditions). That is a hell of a lot of people who fought the whole way but were still found fit to work.
    Your talking about a Fit for Work test based on medieval concepts of being fit & healthy.

    If someone has vital organ damage or something as terrible as crohns disease (stomach/intestine flare ups) there is nothing in the WCA to help them. Most people end up falling though the safety net.

    And your using figures based on a ponzi system? It really does show your agenda. It doesn't wash with us sorry. Go and spout this at some uneducated plumbers from Essex.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    @nulli tertius
    "Evidence please".


    Ok sure. Lets name some disabilities which are so bad that the people that have them cannot work.


    1. Schizophrenia.


    Even with 50mg of tranquilizer & various medications a person of this kind cannot perform any reasonable kind of work in this modern age. Why? Because the effect of such medications make them ultra drowsy & intoxicated.


    The idea that someone with Schizophrenia could work as a Driver, a Cook or a Tele-sales advisor is just down right shameful. Yet Tories on this forum have forwarded the idea.


    2. Personality Disorder.


    Narcissistic, Anti-Social, Shizotypal & Borderline. These are some of the worst ones.
    Lets take Borderline first. BPD.


    BPD is where multiple personalities exist in one human being. A person can go from plain old normal to ultra aggressive in one mood shift. Then they can turn to an avoidant person who is withdrawn then switch to the most outgoing person your ever meet.


    Anti-Social. This kind of person really doesn't care about anyone or anything. They will rob, murder, rape and laugh about it. Most of these people are in jail. Enough said.


    Shizotypal. This is the kind where a person has delusions all the time. Similar to Schizophrenia. However they are excessively aggressive about their delusions since they attach wrong meanings to everything in daily life or think a person is out to kill them.


    Narcissistic. This is the worst personality disorder of all time. Narc's don't really care about people full stop other than their own selfish needs. They will exploit people to the max. Narc's can exist in the work place if they are high level-sociopaths but if they have a combined personality disorder then the chance is not likely and more like down right dangerous.


    For example.


    Narcissist + Anti-Social = Serial Killer.
    Narcissist + Shizotypal = Cult leader.
    Narcissist + BPD = Random personality capable of anything!


    ................................ ................................ ................................


    @Nulli tertius


    Now moving onto the Work Capability Assessment.


    Quit munching on the status quo rubbish. We know and you also know that the ESA WCA is at best a questionnaire which is filled in by a customer service adviser. It doesn't matter if the person filling in the questionnaire is a noble prize winning doctor. They are not allowed to deviate from the nature of the questionnaire.


    For example. Lets say someone has a oncoming hole in their heart. There are no questions in the WCA that relate to this so the customer service adviser will not ask any questions relating to a human beings vital organs; instead questions like where you able to walk 50 meters will be asked.


    If your inclined to politically prove me and my comrades wrong then take it upon yourself to find a question in the WCA that talks about heart problems.


    Here is a link to the WCA questions. Off you go.
    http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/emp...t-the-esa-test
    You are right about mood shifts but BPD is about extremes of mood rather than multiple personalities.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    There are tens of thousands of people with mental health problems in work. Why should possessing any medical condition make work optional for those able to do it?
    It depends on what the problem is and how it effects their ability to work. If someone can't leave the house, due to agoraphobia or anxiety, etc, they shouldn't be forced into working. I don't see it as being optional. It's about who is and who isn't fit for work. They're attempting to push mentally unwell people into work when they're not fit to work. It's wrong. People that have never had any mental health problems are the type of people that would be attempting to push this further forward.
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    Another thing is how are mentally ill people meant to find work? Repeatedly applying for jobs and getting nowhere is demoralising for anybody but can push mentally ill people over the edge. Also, as soon as you get a job you have to declare your illness at which point employers find any excuse to fire you.
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    (Original post by NathanW18)
    It depends on what the problem is and how it effects their ability to work. If someone can't leave the house, due to agoraphobia or anxiety, etc, they shouldn't be forced into working. I don't see it as being optional. It's about who is and who isn't fit for work. They're attempting to push mentally unwell people into work when they're not fit to work. It's wrong. People that have never had any mental health problems are the type of people that would be attempting to push this further forward.
    In reference to anxiety (and coming from someone with a myriad of her own mental health problems), I'm told it's actually better to be exposed to the situations you're avoiding. Allowing said person to avoid the situation only reinforces the initial undesirable / avoidant behaviour.
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    (Original post by Freudian Slip)
    In reference to anxiety (and coming from someone with a myriad of her own mental health problems), I'm told it's actually better to be exposed to the situations you're avoiding. Allowing said person to avoid the situation only reinforces the initial undesirable / avoidant behaviour.
    Yes, but it doesn't mean you should force someone who can't leave the house to go out and do a job. You need to be exposed to these things slowly - going too fast is damaging.

    And I have Generalised Anxiety Disorder so I know about this stuff.
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    (Original post by Freudian Slip)
    In reference to anxiety (and coming from someone with a myriad of her own mental health problems), I'm told it's actually better to be exposed to the situations you're avoiding. Allowing said person to avoid the situation only reinforces the initial undesirable / avoidant behaviour.
    Yeah, you have to expose yourself at some point. You won't improve if you never do. Exposure isn't throwing someone into a fulltime job and expecting them to perform well. It's a slow process and needs to be taken in small steps.
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    Yes, but it doesn't mean you should force someone who can't leave the house to go out and do a job. You need to be exposed to these things slowly - going too fast is damaging.

    And I have Generalised Anxiety Disorder so I know about this stuff.
    I'm just quoting the views of my former therapist. I can't speak so much from experience, given that I am 'guilty' of avoiding situations I've found challenging, before now. Obviously, symptoms and treatment vary with different conditions and co-morbid factors, the semantics of which could be argued all day... such a vast and misunderstood minefield that mental health is!

    (Original post by NathanW18)
    Yeah, you have to expose yourself at some point. You won't improve if you never do. Exposure isn't throwing someone into a fulltime job and expecting them to perform well. It's a slow process and needs to be taken in small steps.
    No, no, I quite agree.
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    (Original post by Freudian Slip)
    In reference to anxiety (and coming from someone with a myriad of her own mental health problems), I'm told it's actually better to be exposed to the situations you're avoiding. Allowing said person to avoid the situation only reinforces the initial undesirable / avoidant behaviour.
    There is such thing as therapeutic work. However this is something like a cafe run by disabled people or a social enterprise. But the Tories don't understand things like this. They just think we will push disabled people into whatever job role we like and if they don't cope we will sanction them! The brutish behavior of the Tories is nothing more than Neo-Nazi thinking.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    @nulli tertius
    "Evidence please".


    Ok sure. Lets name some disabilities which are so bad that the people that have them cannot work.

    That wasn't what I asked for evidence for.

    I asked for evidence supporting the statement that those who can work do


    If your inclined to politically prove me and my comrades wrong then take it upon yourself to find a question in the WCA that talks about heart problems.


    Here is a link to the WCA questions. Off you go.
    http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/emp...t-the-esa-test

    Regulation 29 of the Employment Support Allowance Regulations 2008 as amended provides:-

    (1) A claimant who does not have limited capability for work as determined in accordance with the limited capability for work assessment is to be treated as having limited capability for work if paragraph (2) applies to the claimant.

    (2) Subject to paragraph (3) this paragraph applies if—

    (a) the claimant is suffering from a life threatening disease in relation to which—

    (i) there is medical evidence that the disease is uncontrollable, or uncontrolled, by a recognised therapeutic procedure; and

    (ii) in the case of a disease that is uncontrolled, there is a reasonable cause for it not to be controlled by a recognised therapeutic procedure; or

    (b) the claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement and, by reasons of such disease or disablement, there would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for work.

    (3) Paragraph (2)(b) does not apply where the risk could be reduced by a significant amount by—

    (a) reasonable adjustments being made in the claimant's workplace; or

    (b) the claimant taking medication to manage the claimant's condition where such medication has been prescribed for the claimant by a registered medical practitioner treating the claimant.

    (4) In this regulation “medical evidence” means—

    (a) evidence from a health care professional approved by the Secretary of State; and

    (b) evidence (if any) from any health care professional or a hospital or similar institution,

    or such part of such evidence as constitutes the most reliable evidence available in the circumstances.

    Regulation 35 provides:

    (1) A claimant is to be treated as having limited capability for work-related activity if—

    (a) the claimant is terminally ill;

    (b) the claimant is-

    (i) receiving treatment for cancer by way of chemotherapy or radiotherapy;

    (ii) likely to receive such treatment within six months after the date of the determination of capability for work-related activity; or

    (iii) recovering from such treatment,

    and the Secretary of State is satisfied that the claimant should be treated as having limited capability for work-related activity; or

    (c) in the case of a woman, she is pregnant and there is a serious risk of damage to her health or to the health of her unborn child if she does not refrain from work-related activity.

    (2) A claimant who does not have limited capability for work-related activity as determined in accordance with regulation 34(1) is to be treated as having limited capability for work-related activity if—

    (a) the claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement; and

    (b) by reasons of such disease or disablement, there would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for work-related activity.
    Those administering the WCA have to decide whether these two provisions apply to a claimant. It is a separate section in the report. These provisions are there to catch many people with heart conditions but of course not those with heart conditions whose medical advice is to remain as active as possible.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Your talking about a Fit for Work test based on medieval concepts of being fit & healthy.
    Read both the Harrington and Litchfield (experts in occupational health) reviews who whilst scathing about the assessment processes supported the underlying methodology of the assessments. Hardly medieval. Rather the product of the latest thinking about occupational health.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    There is such thing as therapeutic work. However this is something like a cafe run by disabled people or a social enterprise. But the Tories don't understand things like this. They just think we will push disabled people into whatever job role we like and if they don't cope we will sanction them! The brutish behavior of the Tories is nothing more than Neo-Nazi thinking.
    That's because treating the infirm with any respect is seen as a Marxist, forbidden New Labour ideal that needs to be defied in every possible way.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    One of my mates went into hospital with a collapsed lung, while on a workfare placement. When he returned to placement the boss told him he was "going to make his life hell" for skipping his unpaid work.

    This system is deliberately and cunningly rotten to it's very core and it's disgusting to see how little everyone cares. People simply smile that they pay less in tax and walk on. I have no time for people who vote conservative and turn a blind eye to this.
    They don't even pay less in tax, it's pathetic, people think the Tories will actually give them an extra few hundred quid's worth of crumbs a year after all this bother.

    The media don't report on what is happening in the DWP but we young people with the time and wherewithal to research it know. Still, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone who goes out and vote Tory, since they should have investigated what they are doing first. Ignorance is no defence if you actually vote.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Read both the Harrington and Litchfield (experts in occupational health) reviews who whilst scathing about the assessment processes supported the underlying methodology of the assessments. Hardly medieval. Rather the product of the latest thinking about occupational health.
    I've read them both. Its funny you mention Proffessor Harrington. He was completely against rolling Incapacity Benefit into ESA.

    Benefitsandwork.co.uk published this interview with Proffessor Harrington. In Harrington's own words. The WCA is flawed!

    http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/new...not-trust-atos
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    [QUOTE=illegaltobepoor;48593135]I've read them both. Its funny you mention Proffessor Harrington. He was completely against rolling Incapacity Benefit into ESA.

    QUOTE]

    Harrington was in favour of the system of assessmnet but not the administartive process which he thought was hopeless. He thought the administrative problems should be fixed before anyone was transferred from IB to ESA.
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    (Original post by Quantex)
    Let me guess... The government will send everyone off to 6 sessions of CBT or give them do-it-yourself worksheets and then wonder why it doesn't work.

    My own experience with mental health problems involved me repeatedly begging the local NHS for suitable treatment. Despite the best efforts of some of their staff and my GP, I was offered nothing that was helpful or found myself on 12-18 month waiting lists. I tried to get help through the job centre and then via the work programme to find paid or voluntary work, but they wouldn't touch me beyond offering to send me to CV workshops or basic numeracy/literacy courses. So the government let me sit on my arse claiming benefits of around £9k a year (£12.5k for the year I claimed housing benefit). In the end I lost my patience and sought private treatment. It cost £5,000 over two years. The government could have potentially saved themselves a lot of cash if they had offered me access good quality treatment several years ago.
    Lol your right. Compulsory CBT for those on ESA will hopefully be rolled out this year if IDS has his way. I cant help but wonder if it will be contracted out to a similar company to ATOS who will be hiring unqualified , bargain basement staff to carry out the therapy on vulnerable people.


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    (Original post by miscounted_time)
    Lol your right. Compulsory CBT for those on ESA will hopefully be rolled out this year if IDS has his way. I cant help but wonder if it will be contracted out to a similar company to ATOS who will be hiring unqualified , bargain basement staff to carry out the therapy on vulnerable people.


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    I'll laugh if ATOS staff get some mad hannibal lecter type who goes on a all out rampage. That will teach them.
 
 
 
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