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    (Original post by redferry)
    Of course they will, its not a ridiculous thing to say at all. People will die because the Tories are now completely unfettered, they have no credible opposition and can carry out more and more right wing policies.

    Wake up - that's the way the world works - the vast majority of the general public look down on and resent people on benefits. The vast majority of voters are over 59 and yes, do believe under 25s are u deserving and lazy, and that most people on disabilities are scroungers. It's like you've never met anyone outside some weird left wing bubble you seem to be living in...

    Of course theyre electable, theyre saying views a large proportion of people agree with. Unlike Jeremy who is saying uncapped benefits and immigration.
    If that is really how most of the country thinks what makes you think anyone in a red tie will change their mind?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    If that is really how most of the country thinks what makes you think anyone in a red tie will change their mind?
    That IS how most of the country thinks.

    But you are right, Labour is too far ingrained as the party of welfare, and unlimited immigration and economic profligacy to credibly win an election within this generation.

    As a mainstream political party EITHER you accept what the public thinks on these matters and tries to work with them, or you remain in opposition.

    Or as you said, hop on that plane to Germany.

    Labour is totally screwed, that is the bottom line.

    Doomed, you're all doomed! :-).
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    If that is really how most of the country thinks what makes you think anyone in a red tie will change their mind?
    Why an earth would you have to change their mind? You just have to put forward a credible leader who appeals to what they want, and then make sure you ensure the welfare of the worst off in society once you get there - a la in the Blair era.

    You aren't going to change anyone's minds. I think this is where Cornyn supporters have gone completeley bonkers in their train of thought tbh.

    Would help if they knew how canvassing worked of course (hint - you don't try and change anyone's minds)
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    That IS how most of the country thinks.

    But you are right, Labour is too far ingrained as the party of welfare, and unlimited immigration and economic profligacy to credibly win an election within this generation.

    As a mainstream political party EITHER you accept what the public thinks on these matters and tries to work with them, or you remain in opposition.

    Or as you said, hop on that plane to Germany.

    Labour is totally screwed, that is the bottom line.

    Doomed, you're all doomed! :-).
    To be honest I am half-seriously considering it. If we are going to allow misconceptions and generalisations to go over facts and substance then it is no wonder the establishment gets away with it. You can claim to be a party of aspiration while denying a chunk of the populace a living wage and taking their tax credits. You can claim to be hard on immigration while it continues to go up.

    In essence as long as you claim the 'right' things you can do what you like. No thank you, sir.


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    (Original post by redferry)
    Why an earth would you have to change their mind? You just have to put forward a credible leader who appeals to what they want, and then make sure you ensure the welfare of the worst off in society once you get there - a la in the Blair era.

    You aren't going to change anyone's minds. I think this is where Cornyn supporters have gone completeley bonkers in their train of thought tbh.

    Would help if they knew how canvassing worked of course (hint - you don't try and change anyone's minds)
    Have you read this? Interesting assessment of the election from the thoughtful left...

    http://www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content...-key-seats.pdf
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Have you read this? Interesting assessment of the election from the thoughtful left...

    http://www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content...-key-seats.pdf
    Yeah I have, but it's nothing I hadn't already learned from canvassing in marginal seats around the election!
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Yeah I have, but it's nothing I hadn't already learned from canvassing in marginal seats around the election!
    I have canvassed for Labour too, although not in the last election, being a Kipper nowadays. :-)

    It is a bit of a shock when as a middle class lefty (as I was then) you come up against how anti Labour many working class voters are.

    You do wonder, when you read the idealistic claptrap spouted by them online, how many Corbynistas have actually canvassed for their party...
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    I have canvassed for Labour too, although not in the last election, being a Kipper nowadays. :-)

    It is a bit of a shock when as a middle class lefty (as I was then) you come up against how anti Labour many working class voters are.

    You do wonder, when you read the idealistic claptrap spouted by them online, how many Corbynistas have actually canvassed for their party...
    Haha, I helped out the Labour society at my university a few years ago. We got called red Tories.


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    (Original post by redferry)
    Why an earth would you have to change their mind? You just have to put forward a credible leader who appeals to what they want, and then make sure you ensure the welfare of the worst off in society once you get there - a la in the Blair era.

    You aren't going to change anyone's minds. I think this is where Cornyn supporters have gone completeley bonkers in their train of thought tbh.

    Would help if they knew how canvassing worked of course (hint - you don't try and change anyone's minds)
    Lol

    'THE EARTH IS FLAT'

    *nod*

    'BROWNS ARE TAKING OVER BRITAIN'

    *nod*

    'EVERYONE ON BENEFITS IS A FRAUD'

    *nod*

    You see, telling people what they want to hear and then not backing it up when in office is a little off. Maybe attitudes would change if people heard the facts and their misconceptions were shown to be objectively false.


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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Have you read this? Interesting assessment of the election from the thoughtful left...

    http://www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content...-key-seats.pdf
    Most intriguing how many of them say that scaremongering of an SNP coalition was a key component in their verdict and it shows how pathetic failure in Scotland had a big knock on effect elsewhere. The Tories never had that option when Labour's 40+ Scots MPs were a given.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    To be honest I am half-seriously considering it. If we are going to allow misconceptions and generalisations to go over facts and substance then it is no wonder the establishment gets away with it. You can claim to be a party of aspiration while denying a chunk of the populace a living wage and taking their tax credits. You can claim to be hard on immigration while it continues to go up.

    In essence as long as you claim the 'right' things you can do what you like. No thank you, sir.


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    If it's tolerance for immigrants you're after, stay away from Germany. Most of the media is shying away from reporting so far but their patience is wearing very thin already with the way lots of these "refugees" are acting. They're bringing huge amounts of resentment as people are finding out what a lot of them are really about.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    I have canvassed for Labour too, although not in the last election, being a Kipper nowadays. :-)

    It is a bit of a shock when as a middle class lefty (as I was then) you come up against how anti Labour many working class voters are.

    You do wonder, when you read the idealistic claptrap spouted by them online, how many Corbynistas have actually canvassed for their party...
    Not that ukip would ever be guilty of that themselves

    A lot of working class voters seem to also love to love Tony blair. I think one of the biggest mistakes Labour made was turning the blair years into something shameful that should be apologised for. I don't particularly like the bloke and am by no means a blairite but at the end of the day what he did still resonates with a lot of people.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Lol

    'THE EARTH IS FLAT'

    *nod*

    'BROWNS ARE TAKING OVER BRITAIN'

    *nod*

    'EVERYONE ON BENEFITS IS A FRAUD'

    *nod*

    You see, telling people what they want to hear and then not backing it up when in office is a little off. Maybe attitudes would change if people heard the facts and their misconceptions were shown to be objectively false.

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    There is a huge wealth of scientific evidence showing how wrong you are. It's not the facts that change people's minds it's their circumstances.

    If people have a decent place to live, have a decent paid job, have a objectiveley better standard of life than people on benefits then they don't blame immigrants/people on benefits for their problems. But that's not going to happen unless Labour are in power.


    You can present the evidence that badger culling makes TB worse to a farmer 100 times and theylle still turn around and say 'but what I think is best is if I can just shoot the badgers.' Even though it's not in their own interest and they're literally causing themselves to lose money by doing it.

    Honestly you don't know any normal people do you? You live in some magical world where if people were just shown the facts suddenly they'd see the light and become left wing. Well, I hate to break it to you but as someone who does a **** load of work and research around science communication and policy, a can inform you that, unfortunateley, that is not in any way the case.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Not that ukip would ever be guilty of that themselves

    .
    I may spout claptrap, indeed I definitely do, but no-one can accuse me of idealism.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    If it's tolerance for immigrants you're after, stay away from Germany. Most of the media is shying away from reporting so far but their patience is wearing very thin already with the way lots of these "refugees" are acting. They're bringing huge amounts of resentment as people are finding out what a lot of them are really about.
    Quite.

    Wilkommen Politik is about to be put into reverse.

    I recommend people try and find a copy of today's Times, I can't link it as it is behind a pay wall.

    There are some quite extraordinary proposals being put forward in a leaked draft policy document prepared by the EU Commission.

    Fast track deportations for tens (hundreds?) of thousands, threats to slash aid budgets if the migrants aren't accepted back in their home countries, huge bribes to Turkey to seal the border.

    If any of these measures become EU policy (and it won't happen without Germany's say so) the liberal left are going to become outraged!

    Another country Midlander can't emigrate to. Where's left? Cuba? :-)
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    If it's tolerance for immigrants you're after, stay away from Germany. Most of the media is shying away from reporting so far but their patience is wearing very thin already with the way lots of these "refugees" are acting. They're bringing huge amounts of resentment as people are finding out what a lot of them are really about.
    No I think 1.5 million is far too high for one country to manage. It is not a perfect state as I said but hey, the trains run on time, beer is sold by the litre without people becoming alcoholics and as a society it has managed to rebuild itself more than once. There is a lot to admire there.


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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Quite.

    Wilkommen Politik is about to be put into reverse.

    I recommend people try and find a copy of today's Times, I can't link it as it is behind a pay wall.

    There are some quite extraordinary proposals being put forward in a leaked draft policy document prepared by the EU Commission.

    Fast track deportations for tens (hundreds?) of thousands, threats to slash aid budgets if the migrants aren't accepted back in their home countries, huge bribes to Turkey to seal the border.

    If any of these measures become EU policy (and it won't happen without Germany's say so) the liberal left are going to become outraged!

    Another country Midlander can't emigrate to. Where's left? Cuba? :-)
    They have realised the error in allowing literally millions in without thinking it through. I know every German error inspires a raging hard on among Nige 'Mine's a pint' Farage's supporters but it is the ultimate pot kettle black scenario.


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    (Original post by redferry)
    There is a huge wealth of scientific evidence showing how wrong you are. It's not the facts that change people's minds it's their circumstances.

    If people have a decent place to live, have a decent paid job, have a objectiveley better standard of life than people on benefits then they don't blame immigrants/people on benefits for their problems. But that's not going to happen unless Labour are in power.


    You can present the evidence that badger culling makes TB worse to a farmer 100 times and theylle still turn around and say 'but what I think is best is if I can just shoot the badgers.' Even though it's not in their own interest and they're literally causing themselves to lose money by doing it.

    Honestly you don't know any normal people do you? You live in some magical world where if people were just shown the facts suddenly they'd see the light and become left wing. Well, I hate to break it to you but as someone who does a **** load of work and research around science communication and policy, a can inform you that, unfortunateley, that is not in any way the case.
    The thing going against you here is that attitudes are always changing and over the last few decades this has never been more pertinent. Homosexuality used to be illegal, now they can get married. Capital punishment used to be routine, now it's non existent here.

    Also stop it with the condescending BS on science, I am doing research on it too!


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    (Original post by redferry)
    Not that ukip would ever be guilty of that themselves

    A lot of working class voters seem to also love to love Tony blair. I think one of the biggest mistakes Labour made was turning the blair years into something shameful that should be apologised for. I don't particularly like the bloke and am by no means a blairite but at the end of the day what he did still resonates with a lot of people.
    Invading countries on a false premise?


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    They have realised the error in allowing literally millions in without thinking it through. I know every German error inspires a raging hard on among Nige 'Mine's a pint' Farage's supporters but it is the ultimate pot kettle black scenario.


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    Yes they have.

    But Germany's catastrophic error doesn't inspire any pleasure in any part of my anatomy, especially my willy. Once given EU citizenship they can move anywhere in Europe, and we all know how unattractive to immigrants the UK is...

    It does strengthen UKIP's case for leaving the drowning EU, mind. Which is becoming more compelling every day!
 
 
 
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