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chelski786
Passed of others theory as my own? Show me one example? I got my evidence from the video and provided a link?

Are we not allowed to discuss our history?

I also think you misunderstood why I made this thread. I was showing that the hadith muslims and non-muslims use to state Aeishas age is inaccurate and showed not be trusted. I was also trying to explain to another poster that every hadith in the Bukhari hadiths are not accurate as some people were saying.

I don't consider other people's points? Can you show me one example?

Would making a thread of beauty of Islam not have people coming here and bashing Islam?

You shouldn't have spent time writing your post because it is basically a waste of space.Congratualtions!

Dude, just look in this thread, there isn't just one example there are a myriad of examples. You want to propose a theory which goes against the beliefs of top scholars in Islam who obviously know more about the subject than you and you want to appear to be intelligent by making it seem as though you want a logical debate when many points have been raised contrary to your theory and you haven't taken them on board. Most Muslims accept that Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad (pbuh) however you seem to want to reject this, marrying at a young age was perfectly normal at the time and many have come to accept this so I don't understand why you refuse to.
Reply 221
gildartz
Dude, just look in this thread, there isn't just one example there are a myriad of examples. You want to propose a theory which goes against the beliefs of top scholars in Islam who obviously know more about the subject than you and you want to appear to be intelligent by making it seem as though you want a logical debate when many points have been raised contrary to your theory and you haven't taken them on board. Most Muslims accept that Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad (pbuh) however you seem to want to reject this, marrying at a young age was perfectly normal at the time and many have come to accept this so I don't understand why you refuse to.


I have not refused it. I know it was normal in the past. But, the point is her age is based on one hadith. There are many hadiths that go against it. My question, why believe that hadith over the others?

I have asked that question many times in this thread but you all seem to ignore it. All the responses I have had are that it more normal back then blah blah blah. Im not disputing this. I just want to know why you choose to believe one over the others?

EDIT: Not one person has raised a point contrary to my claim. The claim that the hadith may not be accurate and should not be used as a reliable source.
Reply 222
This is a pretty good explanation. http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html
Reply 223
HarrisonJSmith
And why should anyone believe all of the others if one is wrong? What makes all of them so accurate? Can you prove the autheniticty of the "correct" hadiths?


Well there are numerous hadiths which imply that her age wasn't 9. There is only one that states that she was 9. It's about the numbers.
chelski786
I have not refused it. I know it was normal in the past. But, the point is her age is based on one hadith. There are many hadiths that go against it. My question, why believe that hadith over the others?


Bukhari 5-58-234

"Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Bukhari 5-58-236

"Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."

Bukhari 7-62-64

"Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."

Bukhari 8-73-151

"Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"

Bukhari 5-58-245

"Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah's Apostle in the morning and in the evening."

You're totally correct - it was just one Hadith. (and I haven't even gone to the other hadith collector's - this is just Bukhari) My previous comments stand.
Reply 225
Does it really mather who Muhammed(pbuh) married? I mean Islam is not about Muhammed(pbuh) is it... Its about God's teachings not Muhammed's teachings(pbuh).
Reply 226
Shadowman786
Bukhari 5-58-234

"Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Bukhari 5-58-236

"Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."

Bukhari 7-62-64

"Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."

Bukhari 8-73-151

"Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"

Bukhari 5-58-245

"Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah's Apostle in the morning and in the evening."

You're totally correct - it was just one Hadith. (and I haven't even gone to the other hadith collector's - this is just Bukhari) My previous comments stand.


There are not all seperate hadiths.

bukhari 71;614 drinking honey cures diarrhoea
bukhari 1;11;685 pray in rows or god will transform your face
bukhari 73;68;1 its forbidden to laugh at someone who farts
bukhari 1;12;717 if u look up in prayer u will get your eyes snatched from you

Are these correct?

The hadiths you have posted go against the teachings of islam
Reply 227
bye bye
chelski786
There are not all seperate hadiths.

bukhari 71;614 drinking honey cures diarrhoea
bukhari 1;11;685 pray in rows or god will transform your face
bukhari 73;68;1 its forbidden to laugh at someone who farts
bukhari 1;12;717 if u look up in prayer u will get your eyes snatched from you

Are these correct?

The hadiths you have posted go against the teachings of islam


:facepalm:

Do you want to justify your last statement rather than just spouting rubbish?

You claimed there was only one hadith. I'm claiming there's more but as you have done throughout, you're ignoring that point.

Are those other hadith correct? Because every statement in the Qu'ran and Hadith is meant to be taken literally, right?
Reply 229
Shadowman786
:facepalm:

Do you want to justify your last statement rather than just spouting rubbish?

You claimed there was only one hadith. I'm claiming there's more but as you have done throughout, you're ignoring that point.

Are those other hadith correct? Because every statement in the Qu'ran and Hadith is meant to be taken literally, right?


In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

p.s. I didn't ignore your point. Read my post again.
Reply 230
Shadowman786
:facepalm:

Do you want to justify your last statement rather than just spouting rubbish?

You claimed there was only one hadith. I'm claiming there's more but as you have done throughout, you're ignoring that point.

Are those other hadith correct? Because every statement in the Qu'ran and Hadith is meant to be taken literally, right?


No responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Also, the hadith claims that she was more intrested in playing with her toys than taking up the reponsibility of a wife.
Reply 231
chelski786
No responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Also, the hadith claims that she was more intrested in playing with her toys than taking up the reponsibility of a wife.


Are you just making rulings now even when they contradict the Quran? Marriage can occur at any age but consumation cannot happen till the girl reaches maturity. The girl stays with her family till the age of maturity.

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12708/
I actually deleted my post, because as my previous posts states - this is a pointless discussion. There are many flaws in what you say. You make statements, but only halfway, without Islamic justification for them...

e.g.
chelski786
If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage.
yet the first statement you make suggests the other way around - that if a child is of the age of marriage, they can be entrusted to manage finances, as well as the statement implying that one can be entrusted with finances, prior to the age of marriage and they should be tested for maturity until that age.
chelski786
test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.


As I stated earlier, this is a pointless thread. You ignored the fact that I gave you other hadith (at least 3 seperate ones to the one you quoted) and you will blindly follow your point of view. What I suggest is you go back and speak to the person who is drip feeding you and ask them about the other hadith and perhaps learn to understand more about Islam and it's Fiqh.

Just to make it very clear to you so you don't attempt to goad me into making another point on this thread. I DON'T CARE HOW OLD AISHA (RA) WAS WHEN SHE MARRIED THE PROPHET (PBUH). Whether she was 6,9 or 20, it will not have ANY EFFECT on my life or my afterlife. And that's why this thread has been useless and a massive waste of my time.

Good luck with your pointless argument.

PS. I would be very careful about the statements I make in regards to Sahih Al'Bukhari as to the best of my knowledge, not a single Hadith was included in Sahih Bukhari without the strongest of verifications of its source. To imply that several are false...is to go down a very slippery road.
Casse
Are you just making rulings now even when they contradict the Quran? Marriage can occur at any age but consumation cannot happen till the girl reaches maturity. The girl stays with her family till the age of maturity.

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12708/


How can you have an iddah period for a consumated marriage when a marriage is not supposed to be consumated with a girl who does not menstruate?

The females that don't menstruate being referred to in the verse are not prepubescent girls, they are post-menopausal women.

This [(i.e. they are still immature) is not part of the verse.
Reply 234
Shadowman786
I actually deleted my post, because as my previous posts states - this is a pointless discussion. There are many flaws in what you say. You make statements, but only halfway, without Islamic justification for them...

e.g. yet the first statement you make suggests the other way around - that if a child is of the age of marriage, they can be entrusted to manage finances, as well as the statement implying that one can be entrusted with finances, prior to the age of marriage and they should be tested for maturity until that age.

As I stated earlier, this is a pointless thread. You ignored the fact that I gave you other hadith (at least 3 seperate ones to the one you quoted) and you will blindly follow your point of view. What I suggest is you go back and speak to the person who is drip feeding you and ask them about the other hadith and perhaps learn to understand more about Islam and it's Fiqh.

Just to make it very clear to you so you don't attempt to goad me into making another point on this thread. I DON'T CARE HOW OLD AISHA (RA) WAS WHEN SHE MARRIED THE PROPHET (PBUH). Whether she was 6,9 or 20, it will not have ANY EFFECT on my life or my afterlife. And that's why this thread has been useless and a massive waste of my time.

Good luck with your pointless argument.

PS. I would be very careful about the statements I make in regards to Sahih Al'Bukhari as to the best of my knowledge, not a single Hadith was included in Sahih Bukhari without the strongest of verifications of its source. To imply that several are false...is to go down a very slippery road.


No it's not. The hadiths aren't infallible. Only the Quran is infallible. There actually scholars who argue that 78 hadiths in Bukhari are weak.
Reply 235
Casse
Are you just making rulings now even when they contradict the Quran? Marriage can occur at any age but consumation cannot happen till the girl reaches maturity. The girl stays with her family till the age of maturity.

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12708/


I don't think that translation is very accurate?
Reply 236
Dirac Delta Function
How can you have an iddah period for a consumated marriage when a marriage is not supposed to be consumated with a girl who does not menstruate?

The females that don't menstruate being referred to in the verse are not prepubescent girls, they are post-menopausal women.

This [(i.e. they are still immature) is not part of the verse.


Well according to Sunni scholars, it applies to both. That was the interpretation of Al-Tabari. Here is the explanation from Tafsir Jalalayn:

{ وَٱللاَّئِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاَثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَٱللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاَتُ ٱلأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْراً }

And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.


It doesn't change the fact that such marriages are permissable. The Prophet's (saw) marriage to Aishah (ra) is proof and so is Umar ibn Khattab's marriage to Umm Kulthum bint Ali.
Reply 237
chelski786
I don't think that translation is very accurate?


Here are some more:

YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
Reply 238
chelski786
Mods why did u delete this thread? I am showing a video which proves that Aisha was an adult when she married and you go ahead and delete it. Why? Are you trying to hide the truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXaw9UZlK_I


Okay I am Muslim. I saw the video. Nice.

But there are lots of videos that argue the opposite and other videos on youtube that say all sorts of things about the prophet. Moral of the story: youtube (some may say internet in general) is not an effective or reliable source of information.
Casse
Well according to Sunni scholars, it applies to both. That was the interpretation of Al-Tabari. Here is the explanation from Tafsir Jalalayn:



It doesn't change the fact that such marriages are permissable. The Prophet's (saw) marriage to Aishah (ra) is proof and so is Umar ibn Khattab's marriage to Umm Kulthum bint Ali.


Yes the marriage can be permissible, but what you are implying is that an iddah period exists for non-consumated marriages of pre-prebuscent females. If that is what the verse is referring to, it doesn't seem clear why it should talk about menstruation at all, since menstruation is tied to consumation.

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