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hildabeast
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#121
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#121
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
I see what you are getting at when you say oxbridge is like 'public school with bars'.
I suppose that's because Oxbridge colleges and public schools arose at similar times and have a similar academic ethos. I live near one girl who went to Cheltenham Ladies' and one who went to Wycombe Abbey (top girls' boarding schools) and they both say that college is a bit like boarding school but with much more freedom and responsibility. I guess that's the crucial difference between uni and school

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Alaric
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#122
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#122
I think it funny that you joke that oxbridge is 'public school with bars'. I know two of the public schools in canterbury (where I hail from) do actually have bars!

I think there needs to be some distinction between different types of public school to fully comprehend the system, there seem to be an awful lot of £1/2k public schools that are very much affordable for the upper middle class. I suspect that the numbers from seriously 'posh' public schools only make a small proportion of the independent percentage, just as state grammars and middle class comps will make up the majority of the state percentage.

Also the 56/44 cambridge statistic doesn't include overseas/home-educated students I don't think.

You can also mitigate the situation by choosing colleges with high a high state proportion.

Alaric.
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hildabeast
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#123
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#123
(Original post by Alaric)
there seem to be an awful lot of £1/2k public schools that are very much affordable for the upper middle class. I suspect that the numbers from seriously 'posh' public schools only make a small proportion of the independent percentage,
The phrase 'public school' only refers to a certain number of very old independent schools anyway. Independent schools are different from public schools, although public schools are independent.

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Alaric
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#124
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#124
(Original post by hildabeast)
The phrase 'public school' only refers to a certain number of very old independent schools anyway. Independent schools are different from public schools, although public schools are independent.

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Ahh that makes sense, pity we can't get statistics specifically with regard to them then.
Also shows how far removed from the public school system I am despite being at cam!

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fayzd
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#125
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#125
(Original post by hildabeast)
The phrase 'public school' only refers to a certain number of very old independent schools anyway. Independent schools are different from public schools, although public schools are independent.
Public schools are associated with the HMC, (headmasters conference) or the female version of it, whatever it is....
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Mentally Ill
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#126
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#126
(Original post by hildabeast)
The phrase 'public school' only refers to a certain number of very old independent schools anyway. Independent schools are different from public schools, although public schools are independent.

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I think I remember reading somewhere (possibly on this site!) that before mass schooling arrived there were only two options if you wanted to be 'schooled' - that is, if you were rich of course! Either hire a teacher for home tutoring, or attend a school. Both options needed to be paid for by the family. So if you attended a school it was 'public' in the sense that it was available to the public if you could afford it.

I guess after state funded schools became widespread, it seemed pretty silly to call 'independent' school public! Hence private/independent schools.

I think the names of the old ones just stuck. In any case, 'public' or 'private' are both 'independent' as you say!
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MadNatSci
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#127
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#127
(Original post by fayzd)
Public schools are associated with the HMC, (headmasters conference) or the female version of it, whatever it is....

Still HMC (headmasters'/headmistresses' conference)
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MurphysMoment.
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#128
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#128
Honestly what is so shocking about there only 84 black people in Cambridge? This country has predominantley white people anyway and if is just that the admissions tutors see the other black people who applied as not as suitable for Cambridge as the white people then so be it I say.
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hildabeast
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#129
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#129
(Original post by MurphysMoment.)
Honestly what is so shocking about there only 84 black people in Cambridge? This country has predominantley white people anyway and if is just that the admissions tutors see the other black people who applied as not as suitable for Cambridge as the white people then so be it I say.
The problem is it's clearly indicative of an underlying problem though. Admissions tutors might not be acting in a racist way (although this is always possible) but there is something going wrong somewhere in the education system which means that black students are vastly under-represented.

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Tek
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#130
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#130
(Original post by hildabeast)
The problem is it's clearly indicative of an underlying problem though. Admissions tutors might not be acting in a racist way (although this is always possible) but there is something going wrong somewhere in the education system which means that black students are vastly under-represented.

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And Oxbridge are told to take more of them to solve the problem? Hardly addresses the roots behind whatever makes black children "fail" in school, does it?
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Like Cheese
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#131
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#131
I think it may be more of an issue of few black people applying rather than many black people getting rejected. I suppose it's like a vicious cycle - few apply, so few study there, and prospective black students see little point in applying, or are just put off by the seemingly white-dominated uni life.
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hildabeast
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#132
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#132
(Original post by Tek)
And Oxbridge are told to take more of them to solve the problem? Hardly addresses the roots behind whatever makes black children "fail" in school, does it?
No it doesn't solve the problem, which is why there are more and more initiatives to encourage pupils to aspire to higher education from a younger age than in the past.

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hitchhiker_13
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#133
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#133
(Original post by lala)
On a slight detour, but bear with me...
In no way are 50% of Oxbidge students from public schools. I think you mix up public with independent maybe? I have seen lots of different definitions of what constitutes a public school, but from what I've seen I think most people agree that there's a difference. As far as I know, the numbers of ex-public schoolers at Oxford hasnt actually been measured. Also, the figures you use are wrong anyway, even if you meant independent schools. Apart from the fact that over half of home students are from state school (meaning less than 50% are from the independent sector) there are also international students, who I think constitute about 10% of the Oxbridge population. I'm not sure what the total percentage of independent schoolers is, but its considerably lower than 50%.
Hope this clears it up a bit.

This won't actually help in any way, it might make things worse actually.
I'm from N.I. and my school is a grammar school i.e. non-fee paying, entry based on 11+results primarily. But it is classified, here at least, as an independent school, because it is not state controlled but a Catholic school. I'm not sure how this is classified by Oxbridge, or any other University.
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Mentally Ill
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#134
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#134
(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
This won't actually help in any way, it might make things worse actually.
I'm from N.I. and my school is a grammar school i.e. non-fee paying, entry based on 11+results primarily. But it is classified, here at least, as an independent school, because it is not state controlled but a Catholic school. I'm not sure how this is classified by Oxbridge, or any other University.
If the matter is important to you then you should contact them to find out. If it isn't so important to you I guess you could hazzard an educated guess. It would be reasonable to assume that one of the main significances of the status of the school you attended is to give admissions staff an inkling of your social class group, or maybe your family's wealth (???). The fact that you attend a non-fee paying school would indicate that you have not been particularly 'priviliged' in your education. So, I think your place in the statistics would be with the state schools.
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hitchhiker_13
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#135
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#135
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
If the matter is important to you then you should contact them to find out. If it isn't so important to you I guess you could hazzard an educated guess. It would be reasonable to assume that one of the main significances of the status of the school you attended is to give admissions staff an inkling of your social class group, or maybe your family's wealth (???). The fact that you attend a non-fee paying school would indicate that you have not been particularly 'priviliged' in your education. So, I think your place in the statistics would be with the state schools.

It's not particularly important to me as I don't think it will be a serious factor when applying anywhere. As far as I'm aware, it is not classified as an independent but i could be wrong. I was just wondering for the purposes of statistics etc.

I just checked on QUB site and the vast majority of their students, over 90%, are state, so as lots of people from my school and many others like it go to Queens, it must be classified as state.
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Musicwoman
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#136
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#136
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Cambridge for the low incidence of black students there. The underachievement of black students is recognised throughout the education system and, I would argue, it has failed them long before they get anywhere near their UCAS forms.

As far as the state vs. independent/public school discussion is concerned, I think that those of us who have come from the former have had to work much harder and with greater determination to be in a position to compete. We are all judged on an equal footing yet, speaking as someone who has come from a 'bog-standard comprehensive', I have had to earn my 12 GCSEs (7 A*, 5 A) and AS AAAE in classes of thirty-plus, playing Russian roulette with the quality of teaching. In Year 11 my Science teacher left and I ended up having to teach myself the syllabus for triple Science. My mum taught me a GCSE set text for English because some incompetent had forgotten it and 'the system' had not noticed.

I am an aspirant music student. I was told I was good enough to compete for a place in the National Youth Orchestra but didn't bother when I discovered that the residentials, of which there are several per year, cost around £400 a time. One of my instrumental teachers is recognised as being one of the best in the country. He'd willingly teach me on a regular basis, yet I only get to have lessons with him every three months or so because we cannot afford for me to travel halfway up the country more frequently for lessons, nor pay his fees.

Yes, I know the Special Access Scheme exists (and I have seen no discussion of that anywhere on this forum) but my mum is a graduate, albeit from a crap uni and has no A levels and I'm not sure my 'bog-standard comp' counts as being THAT bad. She teaches in an inner-city comp in Special Measures. That means it's officially crap, yet she teaches students there cleverer than I will ever be who don't even dream about applying to uni, never mind Oxbridge. In any case, I'm happy to compete with the same AAA offers that everyone else gets.

Just don't try to tell me it's a level playing field. Those who have been fortunate enough to have come from the independent, public school or better selective school scenario cannot begin to imagine what some of us have had to do just to find ourselves sitting on the same sofa as you outside the interview rooms.
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Mentally Ill
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#137
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#137
(Original post by Musicwoman)
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Cambridge for the low incidence of black students there. The underachievement of black students is recognised throughout the education system and, I would argue, it has failed them long before they get anywhere near their UCAS forms.

As far as the state vs. independent/public school discussion is concerned, I think that those of us who have come from the former have had to work much harder and with greater determination to be in a position to compete. We are all judged on an equal footing yet, speaking as someone who has come from a 'bog-standard comprehensive', I have had to earn my 12 GCSEs (7 A*, 5 A) and AS AAAE in classes of thirty-plus, playing Russian roulette with the quality of teaching. In Year 11 my Science teacher left and I ended up having to teach myself the syllabus for triple Science. My mum taught me a GCSE set text for English because some incompetent had forgotten it and 'the system' had not noticed.

I am an aspirant music student. I was told I was good enough to compete for a place in the National Youth Orchestra but didn't bother when I discovered that the residentials, of which there are several per year, cost around £400 a time. One of my instrumental teachers is recognised as being one of the best in the country. He'd willingly teach me on a regular basis, yet I only get to have lessons with him every three months or so because we cannot afford for me to travel halfway up the country more frequently for lessons, nor pay his fees.

Yes, I know the Special Access Scheme exists (and I have seen no discussion of that anywhere on this forum) but my mum is a graduate, albeit from a crap uni and has no A levels and I'm not sure my 'bog-standard comp' counts as being THAT bad. She teaches in an inner-city comp in Special Measures. That means it's officially crap, yet she teaches students there cleverer than I will ever be who don't even dream about applying to uni, never mind Oxbridge. In any case, I'm happy to compete with the same AAA offers that everyone else gets.

Just don't try to tell me it's a level playing field. Those who have been fortunate enough to have come from the independent, public school or better selective school scenario cannot begin to imagine what some of us have had to do just to find ourselves sitting on the same sofa as you outside the interview rooms.
Well said My crap science teacher was arrested (and therefore suspended) for child molesting offences while I was in year eleven.
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icarusgideon
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#138
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#138
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
ZOE - thanks for your detailed response.


Yes I can use a dicitionary, but quite simply, could'nt be bothered. Is it really neccessary to demonstrate your broad vocabulary on here? Isn't it obvious that I do not feel the need to use all these words in everyday life? Anyway, if you feel the need to question my intellegence please question away.

I am not going to waste my time addressing the rest of your post because you are an idiot. Many of the points you try to make are, quite frankly, nonsense. Since when is Howard part of the Ivy league?

Before trying to impress people with your vocabulary, try to get your facts right.

Let me get something straight: I do not feel offended by the fact that you disagree with my opinion. I am offended, instead, that you are talking **** and therefore cannot back up your own opinion.
Well Ladies and Gentlemen I have been reading through these posts and I would just like to say to Mentally Ill..........

Until this point the points you were making were mostly ghastly, silly and disrespectful, but quite adequate for you. However, getting to the point, what triggered me to reply to your posts is the fact that could not counter argue to zoe cartlin's argument and retorted to questioning her integrity and litterally abusing her.
For this, Zoe, I am sorry. Unfortunately this is not it, the fact that you act that as a spokesperson for the 'black community' by answering all these peoples questions with this stupid tone, has also angered me. What zoe was saying was right to an extent, in that the small number of blacks meant that only a few if any would understand her problems (be it home,uni or any other issue) clearly had she ended up in cam/oxford. This is not to say that the white students wouldn't, indeed most of my friends are white (guess what...I AM BLACK!!) and I am speaking from experience here.

Mentally Ill, I think that you have a communication problem and ought to sort it out since you turn to abusing those who disagree with you. I feel that you also have an identity crisis in that you don't want to admit that there is a difference between you (being jamaican + black) and other white people. Personally I think its very good to realise that there is that difference in culture and that it should not be a problem. So stop being a bounty (incase that you dont know what that means: black outside + white inside = like that chocolate) and learn to appreciate your values.

BTW, for some of you this might sound a bit racist, but please try to understand that I am not in anyway racist.
Frankly, I couldnt care less whether the admissions to oxbridge is this or that. If you are better than their 'type' of student than they will try to please you by any means necessary!! Yes, speaking from experience again.
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Jamie
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#139
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#139
On a slight detour, but bear with me...
In no way are 50% of Oxbidge students from public schools. I think you mix up public with independent maybe? I have seen lots of different definitions of what constitutes a public school, but from what I've seen I think most people agree that there's a difference. As far as I know, the numbers of ex-public schoolers at Oxford hasnt actually been measured. Also, the figures you use are wrong anyway, even if you meant independent schools. Apart from the fact that over half of home students are from state school (meaning less than 50% are from the independent sector) there are also international students, who I think constitute about 10% of the Oxbridge population. I'm not sure what the total percentage of independent schoolers is, but its considerably lower than 50%.
Hope this clears it up a bit.
(quote of LALA)

I think one thing people don't take into account is that many private school students are on scolarships - tuition is paid for because of some talent or another. Many of these end up at cambridge. They have no better a background parents wealth wise than anyone else.
So surely the stats should be 'how many PAID for their education' (or fully paid because many scholarships are for half or a third of the fees)
J
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Alaric
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#140
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#140
(Original post by Musicwoman)
Just don't try to tell me it's a level playing field. Those who have been fortunate enough to have come from the independent, public school or better selective school scenario cannot begin to imagine what some of us have had to do just to find ourselves sitting on the same sofa as you outside the interview rooms.
damn right, they should take more people from more disadvantaged background, though I suspect the problem is procuring enough to apply to obtain a sufficent standard, you should get a place. **** you should have one over me.

I wish I had sofas outside exam rooms, I had a chair that almost gell ver under my weight

forgive me I am drunk, I blame 9% belgian weiss biers

rawr

Alaric.
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