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    Please use this thread for any discussion related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

    Previous thread: Mk III
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Then its high time the US gives the Palestinians military aid to defend themselves.
    They do. The Palestinian Authority has security forces in the West Bank in case you didn't know. They and the IDF work together and have actually made the West Bank quite stable. Notice you never hear of rocket attacks or Israeli strikes in the West Bank.

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    The Palestinians didn't settle there - they were there from time immemorial. Its the Jews who came in large numbers. Its very easy for a Jew to gain citizenship in Israel.
    Read history. The "Palestinians" are simply Arabs many of whom immigrated in large numbers from surrounding countries looking for work 100-150 years ago. According to the British during their mandate, more Arabs immigrated there than Jews did. The famous historian Martin Gilbert wrote that at least 50,000 Arabs immigrated there during the British Mandate alone, with tons more having gone there during Ottoman rule. Read any accounts about the area, from C.S. Lewis to the British High Commission. All of them said the land was desolate until the Jews moved there and built the place.

    BTW 50% of Israeli Jews today are refugees from Arabic countries. And yes they easily got citizenship and a life. Meanwhile, the Arab countries treat their Arab-Palestinians like filth, they gave neither to them nor their descendants citizenship.
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    They do. The Palestinian Authority has security forces in the West Bank in case you didn't know. They and the IDF work together and have actually made the West Bank quite stable. Notice you never hear of rocket attacks or Israeli strikes in the West Bank.
    Because the West Bank is plagued by illegal Israeli settlements. The US should stop providing Israel with military aid until the Jewish state cease any further illegal settlement building. Its quite unfair. They are like a fire spreading out to the right. If not for Hamas they would have the guts to expand the borders further.


    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    Read history. The "Palestinians" are simply Arabs many of whom immigrated in large numbers from surrounding countries looking for work 100-150 years ago. According to the British during their mandate, more Arabs immigrated there than Jews did. The famous historian Martin Gilbert wrote that at least 50,000 Arabs immigrated there during the British Mandate alone, with tons more having gone there during Ottoman rule. Read any accounts about the area, from C.S. Lewis to the British High Commission. All of them said the land was desolate until the Jews moved there and built the place.

    BTW 50% of Israeli Jews today are refugees from Arabic countries. And yes they easily got citizenship and a life. Meanwhile, the Arab countries treat their Arab-Palestinians like filth, they gave neither to them nor their descendants citizenship.


    Well even if that's true Israel should stick with international law.

    Yeah as I said before its a sad state of affairs. The Palestinians in Gaza has no option but to join with Hamas. The neighbouring states don't seem to show any bit of real support for all their selfish reasons. That's one reason the Muslim Brotherhood was favoured in Egypt.
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    They do. The Palestinian Authority has security forces in the West Bank in case you didn't know. They and the IDF work together and have actually made the West Bank quite stable. Notice you never hear of rocket attacks or Israeli strikes in the West Bank.
    You mean "work together" as in "allow your land to be invaded by settlers whom you protect" whilst you, meaning the PA, fill your pockets with the "aid" that is given to you by Israel?

    Read history. The "Palestinians" are simply Arabs many of whom immigrated in large numbers from surrounding countries looking for work 100-150 years ago. According to the British during their mandate, more Arabs immigrated there than Jews did. The famous historian Martin Gilbert wrote that at least 50,000 Arabs immigrated there during the British Mandate alone, with tons more having gone there during Ottoman rule. Read any accounts about the area, from C.S. Lewis to the British High Commission. All of them said the land was desolate until the Jews moved there and built the place.
    Yes, why not refer to the opinion of a person proudly refers to himself as a "Jew and a Zionist"? I'm sure he won't be in the least biased.

    Having said that, I don't dismiss people's opinions based on the views they hold so let us examine the evidence (detailed below).



    I don't know if you. or Gilbert for that matter can count or where you get your sources from, but that in no way is even close to "50,000 Arabs immigrating".

    If you can bring some evidence for this mythical "50,000 immigrants", then I'd love to discuss this further...

    BTW 50% of Israeli Jews today are refugees from Arabic countries. And yes they easily got citizenship and a life. Meanwhile, the Arab countries treat their Arab-Palestinians like filth, they gave neither to them nor their descendants citizenship.
    Does that not make those who have immigrated "Arabs" given the fact that they were living in Arabia before the State of Israel? Why, all of a sudden, do you want them to disassociate their "Arabness" given the fact that these people had lived in Arab countries for centuries?
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Because the West Bank is plagued by illegal Israeli settlements. The US should stop providing Israel with military aid until the Jewish state cease any further illegal settlement building. Its quite unfair
    Israel is a great ally and invests 75% of that aid back into America, providing thousands of Americans with jobs. Israel also has provided so much intelligence and technology throughout the years.

    “General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence has publicly declared that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He further stated that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants. During the same period Israel provided the U.S. with $50-80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the U.S. “

    You can go cry about it.

    btw according to which law are those settlements illegal?


    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Well even if that's true Israel should stick with international law.

    Yeah as I said before its a sad state of affairs. The Palestinians in Gaza has no option but to join with Hamas. The neighbouring states don't seem to show any bit of real support for all their selfish reasons. That's one reason the Muslim Brotherhood was favoured in Egypt.
    Many Palestinians on the ground there are cooperating with Israel. How the hell dyou think Israel has all this intel? they catch a collaborator in Gaza every other day. Others are brainwashed by years of propaganda and doesn't say much about their personality. I'm sure like any dictatorship/theocracy the Palestinians are 'thrilled' by Hamas insisting they shouldn't listen to Israeli leaflets and phone calls warning the people to evacuate to a safe place.
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    I am not an expert in the Israeli-Palestinian history/conflict but I am a human with enough knowledge to say we should do our best to stop the conflict. Who's right and who's wrong can be discussed when innocent people aren't dying from air strikes and bombs. Right now they need help, fast. Whoever is injured and whatever side of the border. We need to help because we humans need to show humanity.
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    They do. The Palestinian Authority has security forces in the West Bank in case you didn't know. They and the IDF work together and have actually made the West Bank quite stable. Notice you never hear of rocket attacks or Israeli strikes in the West Bank.



    Read history. The "Palestinians" are simply Arabs many of whom immigrated in large numbers from surrounding countries looking for work 100-150 years ago. According to the British during their mandate, more Arabs immigrated there than Jews did. The famous historian Martin Gilbert wrote that at least 50,000 Arabs immigrated there during the British Mandate alone, with tons more having gone there during Ottoman rule. Read any accounts about the area, from C.S. Lewis to the British High Commission. All of them said the land was desolate until the Jews moved there and built the place.

    BTW 50% of Israeli Jews today are refugees from Arabic countries. And yes they easily got citizenship and a life. Meanwhile, the Arab countries treat their Arab-Palestinians like filth, they gave neither to them nor their descendants citizenship.
    Well that's not quite true. Embellishing axioms to suit an agenda is quite the norm. But the reality is that "Arabs" mostly Levantine, Sryrians and Egyptians lived in the "holy land" - Bedouin tribes had done since the time of Petronius' writings and with the advent of the rise of Islam, Moslems and Arabs became the majority - Greeks were more numerous than endemic Aramaic people there, and over more than a thousand years the population was almost wholly an ethno-religious order of Muslims; Syriac, Egyptian, some Bedouin still, some Turks etc.

    I don't particularly vilify or vindicate the actions of Palestine or Israel, but to say the Muslims weren't a vast majority of that they weren't endemic is simply negating fact.

    There wasn't such a thing as Palestinians though, that's a modern invention.
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    Israel is a terrorist nation. Look at all the innocent people they've killed.


    Real Jews know how it is.
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    WHy don't the people in the west bank ever cause trouble ?
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    CNN: Israel drops leaflets warning Gaza residents to evacuate ahead of strikes

    Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israeli forces dropped leaflets in northern Gaza on Sunday to warn residents to move away from Hamas sites to avoid military strikes.

    Battle over 'human shields'

    Video on Hamas-run television showed a Hamas spokesman urging people to serve as human shields, CNN's Jake Tapper reported Thursday.

    Palestinian sources have also described some deaths in the conflict as being people who formed a "human shield."
    But former Palestinian adviser Diana Buttu told "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that she does not believe "people are going to listen to somebody who says stay inside while your house is being bombed."

    Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that controls Gaza, regularly uses sites and facilities populated by civilians.

    "The leadership of Hamas and the other organizations has chosen -- at a time when they are using the population of Gaza as human shields -- to hide under ground, to flee abroad and to deliberately put civilians in the line of fire," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a Cabinet meeting Sunday.

    "This is the entire difference between us and Hamas -- we are using defensive systems against missiles to protect the residents of Israel, and they are using the residents of Gaza to protect arsenals of missiles. Nothing better underscores the difference in this campaign. Israel is a democracy that is fighting -- in a legitimate and focused manner -- against unbridled terrorists," he said.

    Throughout the conflict, Israel has warned Gaza residents of upcoming attacks targeting militants and terrorist infrastructure. On Twitter on Sunday, the IDF posted: "To warn civilians of an impending strike, the IDF drops leaflets, makes personalized phone calls & sends SMSes. How many militaries do that?"
    "Sirens heard across (Israel). Gaza terrorists are firing barrages of rockets. Israel is under attack," the IDF posted, with a photo asking "What would you do?"

    The leaflets told residents which roads were safe to take and gave a time frame. "The IDF is not interested in hurting you or your family members. These operations are limited and short. Whoever does not adhere to these instructions and does not vacate their house immediately is subjecting their lives and the lives of their children and family to danger," the leaflet said.

    The Israeli military said it also drops empty shells on roofs, an operation it calls "roof knocking," to alert civilians that airstrikes are imminent.
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    (Original post by meenglishnogood)
    there will always be plenty of crotisms of israel too, from various quarters ( i have already made this point previously) that doesnt eclipse the fact that islam and muslim populations have a msiive problem with islamists, and palestine is one issue, but the same problems are replicated in areas accross the globe - uighur china, chechnya, kashmir, syria, iraq, somalia, nigeria etc 'etc the list could go on and on. showing that this isnt jsut a 'jewish-driven' problem
    You're back tracking here. You were calling out those who support the Palestinian cause as being Islamists or Islamist sympathisers.

    Now you're saying that islamism is a global problem. Well that's a totally different topic to the subject matter at hand.
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    Can't pretend I follow this, but on BBC news they were saying Netanyahu's response to complaints about airstrikes/civilian deaths is..

    "Hamas attack us first, any civilian causalities from our retaliation is their fault."

    ...I didn't think you could really use that as a defence for killing civilians? I'm not familiar on rules of warfare, or what would be said at international criminal courts say, but it seems weak.
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    [QUOTE=RoyalBlue7] Its just like the Israel-Iran nuke controversy. Israel wants Iran to be nuke-free because it believes that Iran is a rogue state. But Israel has nukes that could bomb Iran back to stone age. Israel points out that Hamas wants to destroy the Jewish state but at the same time it keeps on expanding and settlement building and its they who want Israel to expand to the Euphrates on one side. So don't you think if there was no "terrorist" organization Israel would have stolen the entire Gaza strip?

    I think you can't admit that the innocent Palestinians are the victims. You accuse Hamas of painting that picture. Hamas is just a manifestation of the anger of the Palestinians people. If Israel hadn't have its support from the West, it'd they who'll be called the terrorists. Don't you think? [/QUOTE]


    Well, Hamas does want to destroy the Israeli state. The current situation in Gaza isn't because of peaceful protests, it's because Israel has had enough of having rockets fired at them.

    Absolutely, the innocent Palestinian civilians are victims. They're the victims of Hamas, Hamas's brainwashing techniques which convince them from a young age that all jews are bad and that they must wage some holy war on them. Not to mention, the fact that Hamas uses their own civilian population as human shields. I don't know if you've watched the news recently, but the IDF has actually made efforts to evacuate civilians.

    Anyway, Hamas isn't a manifestation of Palestinian anger, Hamas is just an extremist organization oppressing and brainwashing the Palestinians in Gaza. So yes, those innocent civilians are victims of their own terrorist 'government', much more so than they're victims of Israel which is just trying to protect itself from Hamas. Unfortunately, when in a war situation, there will always be civilian victims, which is, of course, a tragedy that innocents have to suffer for the actions of terrorists.


    Also, no I don't think Israel can ever be called 'terrorist', with or without the backing of the International community. You'd be wise to look up the definition of terrorism before you use it.
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    (Original post by aspiring_dr)
    I am not an expert in the Israeli-Palestinian history/conflict but I am a human with enough knowledge to say we should do our best to stop the conflict. Who's right and who's wrong can be discussed when innocent people aren't dying from air strikes and bombs. Right now they need help, fast. Whoever is injured and whatever side of the border. We need to help because we humans need to show humanity.

    Nothing can or will be resolved till the zionist cancer is not removed from Palestine. Uthrab Uthrab Tal Habib!
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    (Original post by uthrabuthrab)
    Nothing can or will be resolved till the zionist cancer is not removed from Palestine. Uthrab Uthrab Tal Habib!
    Troll, right?
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    [QUOTE=miavdbt;48556438]
    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Its just like the Israel-Iran nuke controversy. Israel wants Iran to be nuke-free because it believes that Iran is a rogue state. But Israel has nukes that could bomb Iran back to stone age. Israel points out that Hamas wants to destroy the Jewish state but at the same time it keeps on expanding and settlement building and its they who want Israel to expand to the Euphrates on one side. So don't you think if there was no "terrorist" organization Israel would have stolen the entire Gaza strip?

    I think you can't admit that the innocent Palestinians are the victims. You accuse Hamas of painting that picture. Hamas is just a manifestation of the anger of the Palestinians people. If Israel hadn't have its support from the West, it'd they who'll be called the terrorists. Don't you think? [/QUOTE]


    Well, Hamas does want to destroy the Israeli state. The current situation in Gaza isn't because of peaceful protests, it's because Israel has had enough of having rockets fired at them.

    Absolutely, the innocent Palestinian civilians are victims. They're the victims of Hamas, Hamas's brainwashing techniques which convince them from a young age that all jews are bad and that they must wage some holy war on them. Not to mention, the fact that Hamas uses their own civilian population as human shields. I don't know if you've watched the news recently, but the IDF has actually made efforts to evacuate civilians.

    Anyway, Hamas isn't a manifestation of Palestinian anger, Hamas is just an extremist organization oppressing and brainwashing the Palestinians in Gaza. So yes, those innocent civilians are victims of their own terrorist 'government', much more so than they're victims of Israel which is just trying to protect itself from Hamas. Unfortunately, when in a war situation, there will always be civilian victims, which is, of course, a tragedy that innocents have to suffer for the actions of terrorists.


    Also, no I don't think Israel can ever be called 'terrorist', with or without the backing of the International community. You'd be wise to look up the definition of terrorism before you use it.
    Wal rukhaam, nuzal zilu Tal Habib. Uthrab Uthrab tal Habib!
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Troll, right?
    Truth is truth, and the truth is zionism is a cancer which no amount of chemotherapy or radiotherapy can cure, it must be removed by surgical means, even if it costs lives, because without doing so, it would give blanket approval for land robbing zionist scum to carry on, zionist must be punished, fully and thoroughly and made an example of for the world to see, and people like you who support such filth should be hung for supporting crimes against humanity.

    Uthrab Uthrab Tal Habib!
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Can't pretend I follow this, but on BBC news they were saying Netanyahu's response to complaints about airstrikes/civilian deaths is..

    "Hamas attack us first, any civilian causalities from our retaliation is their fault."

    ...I didn't think you could really use that as a defence for killing civilians? I'm not familiar on rules of warfare, or what would be said at international criminal courts say, but it seems weak.
    Arab do this all the time to other Arab and different groups like Berber and Nubian. Your "rules of warfare" and international criminal courts can go to hell this how warfare is done in most of the world. If Arab do not want to die they should all go back to Arabian Peninsula and stop occupying all the lands they invaded which includes the Levant
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    (Original post by uthrabuthrab)
    Truth is truth, and the truth is zionism is a cancer which no amount of chemotherapy or radiotherapy can cure, it must be removed by surgical means, even if it costs lives, because without doing so, it would give blanket approval for land robbing zionist scum to carry on, zionist must be punished, fully and thoroughly and made an example of for the world to see, and people like you who support such filth should be hung for supporting crimes against humanity.

    Uthrab Uthrab Tal Habib!
    Well, hanging people for their opinions is awfully humanitarian of you. You're obviously the pinnacle of peace and democracy.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Can't pretend I follow this, but on BBC news they were saying Netanyahu's response to complaints about airstrikes/civilian deaths is..

    "Hamas attack us first, any civilian causalities from our retaliation is their fault."

    ...I didn't think you could really use that as a defence for killing civilians? I'm not familiar on rules of warfare, or what would be said at international criminal courts say, but it seems weak.
    No, you can't deliberately hurt civilians under International Law, however you can target such things as factories producing arms, homes used as military shelters and anyone who is by any means associated with combat and military. The lines become blurred when civilians pick up arms, and then leave them again.

    I don't have my International Law textbook, otherwise I could have made this a lot clearer.

    Either way, Israel is not targeting civilians, all of its targets are involved with Hamas, if civilians happen to die in those, then I believe that does not count as deliberately targeting civilians, because their target was the military shelter (for example), not whatever civilians happened to stand there.
 
 
 
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