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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

You speak with personal knowledge of Mizrahi culture and custom, do you? Why don't you give us some examples of how Mizrahi are culturally Europeanised?

It's hardly news that the Mizrahi were mistreated on their arrival and early years in Israel. As part of that, they were often "de-Arabised" and discouraged from continuing their own customs and traditions, which they were made to feel were inferior to those of the dominant European Jewish population. Ehud Barak made a formal apology for this in 1997.

Citation please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groups

The statistical abstract is linked in the footnote.

Puts the origin of Israelis by patrilineal descent as 47.5% European, 50.2% Asian and North African, and 2.2% Ethiopian.

Unless the rate of intermarriage in Israel is so incredibly small that less than 1 in 20 of those 50.2% have some matrilineal European Jewish ancestry, then a majority of Israeli Jews have at least some European ancestry.

You seem to be confused. The UNSCOP proposal assigned 45% of the country to the Palestinian state, and in fact considering about 1/3rd of the Israeli area was the Negev desert, the Arabs got more like 55% of the country.

How is that "just Nablus"?

I didn't say the UNSCOP proposal, I was talking about a hypothetical partition. It was quite clear and I suspect you know that full well; you've tried this disingenuous and dishonest tactic several times before when we've discussed the partition; when I bring up another hypothetical partition, you don't actually address the point I'm using it to raise, but pretend I'm saying that's what the UNSCOP proposal actually was.

I'll explain it again just in case. According to what you have so far argued, partition only needed to produce one Jewish state and one Arab state - there were no other considerations which it needed to take into account (or if you think there were, you haven't mentioned them). If that is the case, those goals would have been achieved if the Palestinians were given just Nablus and the Jews everything else. It would also have been achieved if the Jews were given just Tel-Aviv and the Palestinians were given everything else.

Given these are obviously ridiculous, I would suggest that partition, if it was going to happen, ought justly to be primarily based on where the two ethno-national groups in question actually inhabit (for the moment we'll ignore the question of settlers and migrants), and try to get as many as possible in 'their' state, i.e. as many Arabs as possible within the Arab state and as many Jews as possible within the Jewish state, and as few Arabs as possible within the Jewish state and as few Jews as possible within the Arab state.

Self-determination isn't an individual right, it's a collective right

Yes, and those ~500,000 Palestinians previously mentioned formed part of that collective. More than 40% of it, in fact.

Self-determination is indeed a collective right, but as with all collective rights, it derives essentially from individual rights. In theory, a group having the right to self-determination means self-determination for all members of that group. Of course, in practice heterogenous demographic distribution (among other considerations) means this has to be limited.

So I ask again, what injustice has been done to a Palestinian living in the Israeli area with full voting rights?

And I ask again, what injustice would be done to a Jew living in a Palestinian state with full voting rights?

I'm not actually arguing that either is preferable, but I would argue that, at the time we're talking about, a single Palestinian state would have been the right answer for other reasons, such as it being a more default answer, as well as the migrant/settler nature of much of the Jewish population.

Because unlike in the partition scenario, where both groups get to have a self-determining state, in the unitary state only the Palestinians have their self-determining state where they are a majority.

Not necessarily, a concept of a shared state could be formed, as exists in places like Belgium, Canada, Bosnia, Northern Ireland, and others. Indeed, the latter two situations have both largely come about as result of acknowledging that any group (as in Bosnia there are of course three separate groups rather than two) practicing 'self-determination' fully in the sense of a separate majority state would be fraught with difficulties, most obviously due to lack of ethnic contiguity, as is evidenced by their bloody conflicts.

The whole point of Israel is to have one place on earth where Jews are a majority

It might well be, but there is no automatic right, for any group, to be a majority or have a majority area, as that would put a requirement on others to guarantee they not become a majority, or even to reduce their population to the level of a minority.

Also, combatting racism by creating an explicitly ethnically-defined state? Go figure.

Your position is that, while the Arab Muslims have majorities in every other state in the Middle East

Other states are irrelevant. We're talking about Mandatory Palestine. Iraq and Yemen are no more relevant to the fate of Palestine because they all have Arab and Muslim majorities than Ireland, Uruguay and Italy are to the fate of Catalonia because all have White and Catholic majorities.

it's completely unreasonable that Middle Eastern Jews (and native Palestinian Jews) should have their own self-determining state on 1% of the land of the Middle East.

You keep trying to push the narrative of Zionism initially or primarily being about Middle Eastern Jews. It's no more convincing than it was the first time. Anyone who knows about the history of Zionism knows it was initially and primarily a European Jewish movement in which Middle Eastern Jews were largely not involved until after the creation of Israel. That within Israel the latter now slightly outnumber the former does not change this.

And again, you can never explain what actual injustice has been done to an individual Palestinian living in an Israel assigned area?

And again, nor can you for an individual Jew living in a Palestinian state?

There would also be a Palestinian state so you cannot claim his people have not exercised their right to a self-determining state.

Yes, I can, just as I can claim that Kosovan Albanians would be denied their right to self-determination by being forced to remain part of Serbia, even though Albania exists. If the Turkish part of Kurdistan became an independent state, that would not diminish the right of the Kurds in Syria, Iraq or Iran to self-determination. The examples could go on.

The answer is none. The answer is that you have right-wing reactionary views

Lol. That ranks pretty high on the amusingly absurd list.

that say that it is an injustice for a Muslim to have to live under a Jewish government.

I never mentioned Muslims, I spoke of Arabs and Palestinians. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being disingenuous for the sake of the argument rather than just racist.

Why is it a wrong for Jews to live as a minority in a Palestinian state, even if some sort of modus vivendi has been reached by which the state is in some sense shared, but not wrong for a Palestinian Arab to live as a minority in a state that explicitly "the state of the Jewish people"?

Enjoy the ban btw.

Reply 7601

seohyun

8

http://www.rt.com/news/311128-settlements-illegitimate-israel-palestine/
"Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued final approval for the “immediate construction of 300 housing units” on site in Beit El, a Jewish settlement in the central West Bank, according to a statement issued by his office.Moreover, planning approval was released for the construction of another 413 homes in East Jerusalem.The decision immediately sparked international condemnation, including criticism from Israel’s close ally, the US."

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/140882/foreign-office-urges-israel-end-settlement-building
"“the UK is deeply concerned by reports that planning for 1,065 settlement units is being advanced, including possible retrospective approval of buildings without permits or on private Palestinian land. The UK’s position on Israeli settlements is clear: they are illegal under international law and undermine the prospects for a two-state solution."

Stealing land, business as usual for Israel.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7602

anarchism101

17

Posted this in the other thread, but I'll stick it here too for reference.

[video="youtube;tdAeFcytcZ8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdAeFcytcZ8[/video]

Reply 7603

The Free Radical

1

I must say, the Palestinians do have some banging choons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLd_JXR1zdE

Original post by anarchism101

Except what actually happened is closer to the opposite. Zionism originally was, and remained right up to 1948, a movement of Ashkenazi European Jews. Apart from a few, it had rarely tried to win over Middle East and North African Jews - they arrived later.

I have noticed those who would do the Jewish people ill seem to love attempting to sow this internal hatred within the Jewish nation by claiming that Zionism is something the evil Ashkenazim, created, and duped their Jewish brothers into following.

If you actually look at Israeli elections, Israeli political support, the Ashkenazim seem to be much more likely to vote against the Zionist parties than Mizrahics, of course this is none of your goddamn business. :smile:

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7604

anarchism101

17

Original post by The Free Radical

I have noticed those who would do the Jewish people ill seem to love attempting to sow this internal hatred within the Jewish nation by claiming that Zionism is something the evil Ashkenazim, created, and duped their Jewish brothers into following.

I don't think they duped them at all, I think they largely ignored for most of pre-1948 Zionist history.

There's nothing historically controversial about saying that Zionism as an idea and movement was developed overwhelmingly by European Jews, and that prior to 1948 non-European Jews (apart from the native Arabophone Jews in Palestine) largely did not participate in it.

If you actually look at Israeli elections, Israeli political support, the Ashkenazim seem to be much more likely to vote against the Zionist parties than Mizrahics, of course this is none of your goddamn business. :smile:

The only non-Zionist party in Israel that has a noticeable Jewish voter base (and a small one at that) is Hadash. All the others apart from the Arab parties, even those like Meretz, are explicitly Zionist.

Reply 7605

TaintedLight

20

I wondered where this thread went.

Anyone keeping a count of the reported deaths caused by the two sides? Among many other graphics, I was quite heart broken to see this

Original post by seohyun

http://www.rt.com/news/311128-settlements-illegitimate-israel-palestine/"Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued final approval for the “immediate construction of 300 housing units” on site in Beit El, a Jewish settlement in the central West Bank, according to a statement issued by his office.Moreover, planning approval was released for the construction of another 413 homes in East Jerusalem.The decision immediately sparked international condemnation, including criticism from Israel’s close ally, the US."http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/140882/foreign-office-urges-israel-end-settlement-building"“the UK is deeply concerned by reports that planning for 1,065 settlement units is being advanced, including possible retrospective approval of buildings without permits or on private Palestinian land. The UK’s position on Israeli settlements is clear: they are illegal under international law and undermine the prospects for a two-state solution."Stealing land, business as usual for Israel.

Interesting to note is; had this been Russia; US and EU would be quick to impose economic sanctions to destabilize their economy. Whereas Israel (who have committed far worse atrocities) is quite comfortable under the international watch.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7606

interact

15

This video shows 13-year-old Ahmed Manasra lying bleeding on the ground, terrified and crying, as a male adult voice can be heard saying, "Die, you son of a *****" over and over again. Ahmed was deliberately run over in East Jerusalem yesterday, and his 15-year-old cousin, Hassan, was shot dead by Israeli soldiers.

Reply 7607

interact

15

17-year-old Marah al-Bakri was surrounded by 10 armed Israeli police officers outside her school in East Jerusalem yesterday.
Minutes later, they started shooting.
Marah is now in hospital with serious injuries.

This video shows the moments before the Israeli police opened fire on the schoolgirl:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1011915415498507&id=967459553277427&_rdr

In this video, another schoolgirl who witnessed the shooting describes what she saw: https://www.facebook.com/ShehabAgency.MainPage/videos/1208108629231555/?__mref=message

Reply 7608

TaintedLight

20

Such a gloomy thread =|

News reports of Israeli military using canines to apprehend/attack civilians. One of the troops even went on to record a footage of a dog biting the back of frightened teenager who is screaming for a divine intervention. Disturbing video to say the least!

http://www.btselem.org/beating_and_abuse/20141229_military_continues_to_use_attack_dogs_against_civilians

There are certain principles a nation should follow should their long term objectives be in the best interest of "democracy" or "peace", these footages show that Israel is completely playing the fool with US / UN and consistently employing tactics designed to dehumanize each and every Arab that is not a Jew. Setting dogs on civilians should not only be unlawful but is also extremely immoral.

Reply 7609

PrincessAnna

11

Just saw a video of a Palestinian boy, no older then 12. taking his last breath cause he got shot whilst isreali soldiers stand around and laugh. Well now that has changed the whole image i had of isreal. ****ing disgusting pigs.

Reply 7610

TaintedLight

20

Rogel Alpher wrote October 17,

In the event of my death in the current wave of terrorism, in the event that a terrorist, male or female, runs me over or stabs me, I would like to announce in advance that my final words are: “I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner. Really. What took you so long? Countless times, while passing a construction site on one of the city streets during the quiet, early hours of the morning, I’ve wondered why one of the Palestinian laborers there didn’t grab a drill bit or shovel, a saw or a hammer, and murder me."

“I have never believed in the myth of coexistence in this country. I don’t believe in coexistence based on extreme inequality when it comes to human rights, social status and economic opportunities…

“If I get killed in a terrorist attack, I ask that the endless broadcasts loop of the report about my murder, as is the custom currently, be dispensed with. It is not what I want. It will contain no information that the public would want or need to know about. It would just stir up hatred. I would ask that my killers, if they remain alive, be told on my behalf that I apologize. I am reconciled with them after my death.

“And if my murderers also die, I apologize to them at this time, in advance; not because I deserved to die, and not because they have the right to kill me, but so my death is worth something, so it has some value, some significance, no matter how small. I have no God. I don’t need the Temple Mount. I have no problem living with the Palestinians as full equals in a binational state or as a peace-loving neighbors in my country and next to their own. What use would I have for revenge on my behalf after my death? I apologize for my paltry role in the injustice of the occupation.

Even after my death.”

Original post by PrincessAnna

Just saw a video of a Palestinian boy, no older then 12. taking his last breath cause he got shot whilst isreali soldiers stand around and laugh. Well now that has changed the whole image i had of isreal. ****ing disgusting pigs.

There are good people in Israel :fyi:

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7611

TaintedLight

20

What's with the lack of participation in here =S

On 25, Oct. 15

Danya Arsheed, aged 17, is shot dead in cold blood by the Israeli army. Reports suggests Danya could have survived if it wasn't for the army preventing civilians from hospitalizing her.

I've noticed a trend of targeting teenage girls by the army. Wonder what's their nonsensical logic this time.

Video footage shows the army circling Danya's dead body and then vacating.

Reply 7612

Skip_Snip

3

Original post by PrincessAnna

Just saw a video of a Palestinian boy, no older then 12. taking his last breath cause he got shot whilst isreali soldiers stand around and laugh. Well now that has changed the whole image i had of isreal. ****ing disgusting pigs.

Is it the boy who was running around stabbing folk? Yes, that poor dear.

Reply 7613

Illiberal Liberal

2

"Confessions of an Israeli traitor - The occupation is destroying our own society, too" - a very interesting article by an ex-IDF soldier, in the Washington Post from last week.

Focuses on the encouragement of violence and hostility by the Israeli government against Palestinians and how this has manifested itself.

Reply 7614

ShotsFired-9941

7

Original post by Illiberal Liberal

"Confessions of an Israeli traitor - The occupation is destroying our own society, too" - a very interesting article by an ex-IDF soldier, in the Washington Post from last week.

Focuses on the encouragement of violence and hostility by the Israeli government against Palestinians and how this has manifested itself.

Surprising to see an Israeli trooper capable of thinking. They all displayed an awareness of a monkey whenever caught on camera

Original post by Skip_Snip

Is it the boy who was running around stabbing folk? Yes, that poor dear.

Why wasn't that Israeli shot when he went on a stabbing spree during that gay march in Israel? Hmm.. I think I may have answered my question.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7615

Horsedobbin

14

Original post by anarchism101

Ist.

Why is it a wrong for Jews to live as a minority in a Palestinian state, even if some sort of modus vivendi has been reached by which the state is in some sense shared, but not wrong for a Palestinian Arab to live as a minority in a state that explicitly "the state of the Jewish people"?

.

There would be nothing "wrong" with Jews living as a minority group in a future Palestinian state if they were allowed to do so and if their rights and status were equal in theory and in practice to those of the majority Palestinians and if they could do so in safety.

The problems with this utopian dream are many. For a start, they would not be allowed to live in safety. If you doubt this, look at the history of the treatment of Jews in Arab / Muslim countries such as Egypt and Syria. Why are there virtually no Jews living in Egypt?

Reply 7616

TaintedLight

20

https://www.facebook.com/QudsN/videos/1032901843453383/

Footage of Israeli cops torturing a minor. So sad this is happening in a first world nation.

Edit: "Torture" may be inexact wording

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7617

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by DiceTheSlice

https://www.facebook.com/QudsN/videos/1032901843453383/

Real footage of Israeli cops torturing a minor. So sad this is happening in a first world nation.

I see good cop bad cop and a child being questioned by the police. Hate to break it to you but the worlds police forces aren't the pussys ours are.

But your use of the word 'torturing' is dishonest in the extreme.

FYI you see the vid of Muslims shooting 200 children in a ditch while not showing any actual torture does show children being shot in the head.

Reply 7618

TaintedLight

20

Original post by BaconandSauce

I see good cop bad cop and a child being questioned by the police. Hate to break it to you but the worlds police forces aren't the pussys ours are.

But your use of the word 'torturing' is dishonest in the extreme.

FYI you see the vid of Muslims shooting 200 children in a ditch while not showing any actual torture does show children being shot in the head.

Agreed. This footage wasn't a true depiction of torture, rather mental aggravation.

... You completely lost me at "Muslims shooting 200 children..."

Are you by a goof chance referring to Palestinians?

What "muslims" do in a shopping mall or in a rebellion or in school is really irrelevant in this thread.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 7619

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by DiceTheSlice

Agreed. This footage wasn't a true depiction of torture, rather mental aggravation.

... You completely lost me at "Muslims shooting 200 children..."

Are you by a goof chance referring to Palestinians?

What "muslims" do in a shopping mall or in a rebellion or in school is really irrelevant in this thread.

you agree the term torture was dishonest and what we see is nothing more than good cop, bad cop.

I thought you were after something horrific (you know real children being shot in their heads) but had failed to find it so thought I'd help. Nothing more

The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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