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The Manchester United Thread XXI
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Original post by Dirtybit
It's really funny because even with all our other draws, if we had just won our last 2 games, we would be sitting 2 points off 3rd place with 2 games in hand right now.
Yeah I mean you aren't the only one to have messed up though are you? Everybody aside from Chelsea and Spurs have consistently bottled it, it's just that you've done it slightly more.
Even so:
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Original post by Louis.
Amazing we're still in contention really (looking purely at points), when we're playing this 
. But with our form and our fixtures I'd be stunned if we got top 4.
Also what the hell is up with these dolphins
. But with our form and our fixtures I'd be stunned if we got top 4.Also what the hell is up with these dolphins
You have not got the pedigree.
Original post by Lúcio
Yeah I mean you aren't the only one to have messed up though are you? Everybody aside from Chelsea and Spurs have consistently bottled it, it's just that you've done it slightly more.
Even so:
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Even so:
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This will bang when you miss out on Champions League football and we finish 6th and win Europa
Original post by Dirtybit
This will bang when you miss out on Champions League football
Yeah I know but might as well get it out here early so I can go in to hiding when we bottle it
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Original post by Dirtybit
Nah man Rashford hasn't played well as a ST this season, especially the later part of the season. His finishing has been shocking.
Rashford's has scored 75% of the shots he's taken in the danger area (the other was that point blank save from Valdes), thats good finishing. If you actually look at a shot map for him this season, the take away isn't finishing, he's really not shooting from meaningful positions, the majority of his shots are barely in the area too wide, though too many bodies. Other than those few, very little else of note. Even those one on ones, players (Rashford or otherwise) simply don't score them with every time, 90% of the time if the commentator says he should have scored he's talking about a marginal chance in reality. You're often at full pelt, and trying to generate an angle on a goal keeper who is set to make a save from a player he knows is going to be taking the shot. Players often end up over working the angle or shooting with too much power or too far out so they don't over run it. Its like a 50% scoring chance in reality.
If you want the 8/10 times he scores, you need to be shooting from the right positions with regularity. You look at a similar map for someone like Defoe, its packed with shots from central shots inside the box, even someone like Aguero who is hardly conservative with his shooting (also freakishly good as scoring from wide), like 80% of his shots are from within the width of the 6 yard box inside the penalty box. Cut backs, tap ins, and volleys/flicks where there is little need to work an angle or generate much power, the keeper is usually poorly positioned to make a save. Those poachers goals. They aren't high percentage due to anything to do with finishing. The quality of the chance is what makes the goal so likely not the quality of the shot.
Genuinely, go on youtube and watch a compilation of RVP's goals for us that first season and count what percentage of them are scored from shots in that central zone. We dominated the league at creating chances for RVP in that area by a significant margin.
Its not just Rashford or him playing on the wing, Ibra struggles to find the quality of chances he really needs to. People talk about him being wasteful but as above, most of Ibra's shots simply aren't high percentage scoring opportunities, and we in general generate very few of them for him. Ibra gets by one shooting a lot from half chances, but as people were criticising him earlier in the season, he needs like 4-5 of those a game to get a goal unless he's fortunate.
So jealous City have got Sane. I knew he would be a great, but the way City's wide players (Chelsea too with the wingbacks) and fullbacks work is so good. You could even see it just yesterday with Shaw, just having another player who is willing to get ahead and go beyond is so valuable. Kind of connected to the above but having those players in the wide areas who can shift players do more than just stand a cross up, and hope, goes a long way to created high quality chances, and not just on the counter either. The really issue for us with this is what it means defensively, and we need a dynamic partner for Herrera unless the plan is to leave Fellaini alone in the centre. City and Liverpool's high pressing its much more an attacking decision than a defensive one, but Spurs show even with the fullbacks pushed super high if you can press properly at the midfield level you can really protect you defence regardless so Jose could make it viable for his needs.
(edited 7 years ago)
Rashford's missed at least 4 1vs1 these last few games.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
In fact going to that finishing point, pretty sure Costa didn't score a single goal from outside the box for Chelsea until this season, which probably explains his pretty astonishing finishing rate.
Mario Gómez has made an entire career out of scoring high percentage shots and doing nothing else as well. That then must go to chance creation, which goes to the point that Mourinho's style of play means that it is harder to create high percentage shots (other than counter attacking, which again is harder with Ibrahimovic in the side and is against teams that decide to give you space in behind i.e. poorly organised defensive teams). The fullback things also has generally been an issue in Mourinho teams, it's not even just having a fullback that pushes beyond and creates space(Ivanovic did that all the time for us but was still useless other than set piece threat) it's also having dynamic fullbacks who have the ability to actually damage you with the extra space that they create, which is often the reason why nowadays fullbacks are often failed wingers instead of centre backs. Mourinho tends to use one of these instead of two which probably ties in to why Shaw isn't playing(plus any animosity/vanity issues he clearly has with the player).
I can see why Pep uses Navas at RB and there is no coincidence that SAF/Van Gaal/Moyes and Mourinho thought Valencia was a viable option at RB? Moses too. Even Marcelo used to play at LW under Pellegrini yet got moved back under Mourinho. Nowadays the winger/fullback connection seems to be very important, so having a fullback that has played as a winger makes it easier, the positioning aspect can always be covered by a defensive midfielder and these fullbacks tend to be very fast so it means they can use their recovery pace as a last resort when they're caught out of position. Probably why Fernandinho and Delph started today coming to think of it.
Mario Gómez has made an entire career out of scoring high percentage shots and doing nothing else as well. That then must go to chance creation, which goes to the point that Mourinho's style of play means that it is harder to create high percentage shots (other than counter attacking, which again is harder with Ibrahimovic in the side and is against teams that decide to give you space in behind i.e. poorly organised defensive teams). The fullback things also has generally been an issue in Mourinho teams, it's not even just having a fullback that pushes beyond and creates space(Ivanovic did that all the time for us but was still useless other than set piece threat) it's also having dynamic fullbacks who have the ability to actually damage you with the extra space that they create, which is often the reason why nowadays fullbacks are often failed wingers instead of centre backs. Mourinho tends to use one of these instead of two which probably ties in to why Shaw isn't playing(plus any animosity/vanity issues he clearly has with the player).
I can see why Pep uses Navas at RB and there is no coincidence that SAF/Van Gaal/Moyes and Mourinho thought Valencia was a viable option at RB? Moses too. Even Marcelo used to play at LW under Pellegrini yet got moved back under Mourinho. Nowadays the winger/fullback connection seems to be very important, so having a fullback that has played as a winger makes it easier, the positioning aspect can always be covered by a defensive midfielder and these fullbacks tend to be very fast so it means they can use their recovery pace as a last resort when they're caught out of position. Probably why Fernandinho and Delph started today coming to think of it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by trapking
does anyone actually read Fizzels long paragraphs? me
me I think most long term posters would accept the quality of posting in the FF as a whole is worse than pretty much ever. The matchday threads and even the Misc thread were created to keep that stuff out of the club threads but its more a case of not much else than that is posted than the need to direct low quality/casual posting to somewhere else.
Meh, I just have an old posting style I think, my posts didn't used to stand out. Pretty much everyone else did the same, even just going back a couple of years you'd see a lot more paragraphed posts.
Original post by Rk2k14
Rashford's missed at least 4 1vs1 these last few games.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
I was going to say that Ronaldo who is able to score all kinds of goals and is no doubt seen as a good finisher tended to be able to score from many different areas of the pitch because he takes like 10 shots a game(not sure now as he uses less areas of the pitch to his early days at Madrid/United). He's a volume shooter and has good technique on the ball so eventually one goes in from distance. Same story for Sanchez. Ronaldo has even improved his game nowadays and has become a perfect poacher, it may piss people off how he can have a bad game and score a tap in but his understanding of movement is so good that he can do that with absolute regularity.
Fact is the more shots you take from reasonable distances the more goals you are likely to score, which I think is what his point is. Ibrahimovic seems to be very good at getting into positions to score and creating his chances through good movement/technique. The issue with misfiring strikers isn't even the chances missed, it's their lack of ability to actually have the ball in good positions where they can be expected to score(Vincent Janssen looking at you). Eventually due to averages you'll score if you get enough chances in the game.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Fizzel
Tbf back in the day before this forum was mostly like 606 people did actually used to post more than just knee jerk reactions and score updates, and you'd actually get people replying and debating points about the team.
I think most long term posters would accept the quality of posting in the FF as a whole is worse than pretty much ever. The matchday threads and even the Misc thread were created to keep that stuff out of the club threads but its more a case of not much else than that is posted than the need to direct low quality/casual posting to somewhere else.
Meh, I just have an old posting style I think, my posts didn't used to stand out. Pretty much everyone else did the same, even just going back a couple of years you'd see a lot more paragraphed posts.
I think most long term posters would accept the quality of posting in the FF as a whole is worse than pretty much ever. The matchday threads and even the Misc thread were created to keep that stuff out of the club threads but its more a case of not much else than that is posted than the need to direct low quality/casual posting to somewhere else.
Meh, I just have an old posting style I think, my posts didn't used to stand out. Pretty much everyone else did the same, even just going back a couple of years you'd see a lot more paragraphed posts.
I'm all for debating footballing matters but no offence I'm not going to sit here and type a 10 page essay trying to prove why Rashford hasn't been poor (when he actually has been btw). Who has the time to do that unless you're homeless/have no job and sit home all day?
If you know anything about mathematics then i'm sure you of all people know that statistics cannot really be trusted anyway (especially if the sample size is small) as different sources will have/provide different statistics (as Mourinho rightly said in one of his press conferences).
Original post by bammy jastard 27
Mario Gomez has made an entire career out of scoring high percentage shots and doing nothing else as well. That then must go to chance creation, which goes to the point that Mourinho's style of play means that it is harder to create high percentage shots (other than counter attacking, which again is harder with Ibrahimovic in the side and is against teams that decide to give you space in behind i.e. poorly organised defensive teams). The fullback things also has generally been an issue in Mourinho teams, it's not even just having a fullback that pushes beyond and creates space(Ivanovic did that all the time for us but was still useless other than set piece threat) it's also having dynamic fullbacks who have the ability to actually damage you with the extra space that they create, which is often the reason why nowadays fullbacks are often failed wingers instead of centre backs. Mourinho tends to use one of these instead of two which probably ties in to why Shaw isn't playing(plus any animosity/vanity issues he clearly has with the player).
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10825960/utds-unbeaten-run-worst-in-pl
The "least productive" unbeaten streak in Premier League history 😂😂😂
Still unbeaten tho
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The "least productive" unbeaten streak in Premier League history 😂😂😂
Still unbeaten tho
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Original post by trapking
I'm all for debating footballing matters but no offence I'm not going to sit here and type a 10 page essay trying to prove why Rashford hasn't been poor (when he actually has been btw). Who has the time to do that unless you're homeless/have no job and sit home all day?
If you know anything about mathematics then i'm sure you of all people know that statistics cannot really be trusted anyway (especially if the sample size is small) as different sources will have/provide different statistics (as Mourinho rightly said in one of his press conferences).
Also said the limitations that the many chances metrics have an given reasons why you can underscore or why we are unlike Spurs or Liverpool who are outscoring most of those metrics in reality. RK posted above about making your own luck, which is true and is a point with merit but he hasn't expanded upon why, or used the many examples this season or in previous where teams have basically manufactured what seems like luck.
Original post by Dirtybit
Yesss another draw comeon get in there!!!
seriously how many draws does it take for you to realize that your man jose needs to switch it up
Original post by SirAlexFerguson
Hope I never see Lingard in a United shirt again, we have wingers who can't cross consistently. They put one good cross in every two weeks and for the rest of the time they just over hit it. Rooney probably is the best crosser in the team so if we are going to cross is 1023423 times we might as well have Rooney at LW to do some inswingers.
Would complain about Martial not starting but I think Young was injured and on a yellow. Rashford is out of form and needs to be pulled out, the hype is probably getting to his head. Think he might turn into another Theo Walcott. Fellaini offered nothing as well, he'll probably be scapegoated but he wasn't the worst player today.
Ref was shite as well, stops the game when we have the ball and Everton dont give it back, not even Liverpool do that. Shows that area is just full of scum. Disallows an onside goal, doesn't give any fouls which even a blind person could see and didn't see the handball before the Everton goal.
20 games unbeaten, 10 draws...
Would complain about Martial not starting but I think Young was injured and on a yellow. Rashford is out of form and needs to be pulled out, the hype is probably getting to his head. Think he might turn into another Theo Walcott. Fellaini offered nothing as well, he'll probably be scapegoated but he wasn't the worst player today.
Ref was shite as well, stops the game when we have the ball and Everton dont give it back, not even Liverpool do that. Shows that area is just full of scum. Disallows an onside goal, doesn't give any fouls which even a blind person could see and didn't see the handball before the Everton goal.
20 games unbeaten, 10 draws...
rashford is not good because he has not improved under jose. he needs a better manager
Original post by Dirtybit
Squad needs to be ripped apart in the summer, at least we know that Jose is a cheque book manager so we should get that right at the very least.
to me rashford cannot play to jose's style soon he is going to put him in the academy.
Original post by Aky786UK
It was an undeserved point for the football we played to get back into the game. Robles didn't even have a worldie besides making saves you'd expect any keeper to make.
The selection was poor and as many times this season, a real lack of fluidity and flow. For that not to be in place suggests a lack of direction from the manager than the individual players to be expected to just deliver.
Watching last night made me realise that if we could somehow nab a reliable striker who is dynamic and offers more than Ibrahimovic atm, then I wouldn't mourn the loss of the big Swede if he went to America (that would be an odd move to satisfy his ambition). He was culpable of missed chances again despite scoring the penalty.
I hope it's not a developing trend but De Gea seems to be lacking in abit of focus, hope the Madrid rumours aren't affecting him but with the under achievement this year, perfectly reasonable for him to be considering his options.
Europa League it is as fully expect more points to be dropped.
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The selection was poor and as many times this season, a real lack of fluidity and flow. For that not to be in place suggests a lack of direction from the manager than the individual players to be expected to just deliver.
Watching last night made me realise that if we could somehow nab a reliable striker who is dynamic and offers more than Ibrahimovic atm, then I wouldn't mourn the loss of the big Swede if he went to America (that would be an odd move to satisfy his ambition). He was culpable of missed chances again despite scoring the penalty.
I hope it's not a developing trend but De Gea seems to be lacking in abit of focus, hope the Madrid rumours aren't affecting him but with the under achievement this year, perfectly reasonable for him to be considering his options.
Europa League it is as fully expect more points to be dropped.
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WE have martial, we don't need lukaku. Seriously M&R upfront with traditional wingers would have won the league.
The problem is Jose is a stubborn man
Original post by bammy jastard 27
Don't get how people are not blaming the manager if you're playing the same tactics as last season yet people were quick to get rid of Moyes and Van Gaal. I know people are sick of sacking managers every season but in all honesty after spending 150M you're on track to have a season similar to Moyes.
Why wasn't Mkhitaryan introduced to the team earlier?
Why does Lingard still play so many important games?
Why does Shaw not start considering the other options?
Why does Martial not start regularly?
Why has Rashford managed to regress?
Why do United seem unable to beat defensively organised teams despite having the best attack in the league player wise?
Why do United not actually show some passhun in these games?
Things could be better next season and you can still win europa league which clearly is the focus, but I think it is unfair on other managers that they have been sacked with a weaker team for doing similar.
Why wasn't Mkhitaryan introduced to the team earlier?
Why does Lingard still play so many important games?
Why does Shaw not start considering the other options?
Why does Martial not start regularly?
Why has Rashford managed to regress?
Why do United seem unable to beat defensively organised teams despite having the best attack in the league player wise?
Why do United not actually show some passhun in these games?
Things could be better next season and you can still win europa league which clearly is the focus, but I think it is unfair on other managers that they have been sacked with a weaker team for doing similar.
Jose might as well be a Chelsea agent paid to destroy Man Utd
Original post by Ben2310
Does anybody else think that Fosu-Mensah is wildly underrated?
Mensah needs to leave if he wants to play. Jose is a stupid for playing fellaini over him. Also, He might go and buy
Godfred Donsah or Franck Kessié and claim that they are better than him.
Original post by Lúcio
Completely agree - United probably have better squad depth than anyone.
Arsenal's is decent but they're bottlers so it doesn't really matter.
Liverpool are basically there for the taking with Henderson, Lallana and Mané all injured. However United are seemingly incapable of winning a game of football, and Arsenal are Arsenal...
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Arsenal's is decent but they're bottlers so it doesn't really matter.
Liverpool are basically there for the taking with Henderson, Lallana and Mané all injured. However United are seemingly incapable of winning a game of football, and Arsenal are Arsenal...
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he does not use the squad properly. the problem is that with jose if you are not part of his fan club you cannot play and that's why players like depay left. People are saying we are going to buy luikaku. Seriously, we have a 57million player called Martial. Why don't he play him in his position not on the left from day one and play depay on the left. Jose said he will play a team of specialist but this season he is playing Fellaini everywhere except GK. This is a problem - I am deeply worried. And most of all what is annoying is that on paper we should be strongly challenging for top 4 but this man has some how found a way to make it not happen in order to get a cheque book, so he can buy the league.
Have you heard what ROy Keane said about Jose's comments on fixtures?
Original post by Rk2k14
Rashford's missed at least 4 1vs1 these last few games.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
Are we supposed to sit there and say "Oh there's a defender trying to block his shot, cant blame Rashford for missing that sitter".
"He isnt as central as he'd like, we'll let him off for that one".
If finishings all about luck then you do your damn hardest to make your own.
PREACH
Original post by sr90
Shaw really isn't anything special offensively, has about 3 assists since he joined us. Young offers more as an attacking full back.
Tbh that Palace squad should be top half anyway. Shows what a terrible job Alan Pardew did
Tbh that Palace squad should be top half anyway. Shows what a terrible job Alan Pardew did
He had them in 5th place form for 14/15 and 7th place for the whole year. Their defence consisted of Speroni, Ward, Dann, Delaney and Souare none of whom were top half quality players imo, in fact I'm sceptical that any of them other than Dann were PL quality.
With the squad that Palace had they were low mid table. It's only Pardew who's had them performing anywhere near a good side. Warnock, Holloway and Big Sam all had them roughly around the same level.
In reference to above, Allardyce certainly hasn't been clever with his purchases thus far £23m on Schlupp and Van Aanholt looks like a waste, lol if he's allowed to sign Shaw after that too. I don't think Big Sam has an excellent record when given free reign in the transfer market.\
Weren't you saying that Pulis off the back of 13/14 was better than Mourinho or something. When you look at Pardew's achievements in his first year, I'd say he did better with a more expansive style of football.
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