John Bull
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It's important for applicants to know what is going with the name change. The business school is trying to keep the information internal. Here are the 4 new potential names. They have sent out a survey to gather feedback. It must also be mentioned that 2/3 of the names were not suggested in the portal. They just came from nowhere. Here are the names:

City of London School of Management (CLSM)
Bayes Business School
Quaro Business School
Mais Business School
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John Bull
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They picked Bayes Business School. I would guess most people probably picked CLSM
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ppapanastasiou
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Never understood why they did not revert back to City, University of London, Business School or City, Business School.

Imperial Business school went back to its original name when they dropped the name Tanaka in 2008, both because the old name did not strongly emphasise its association with the College, and because Tanaka was found guilty of fraud the same year.

So it unclear to me why City did not do something similar or at least suggest this option.
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Never understood why they did not revert back to City, University of London, Business School.

Imperial Business school went back to its original name when they dropped the name Tanaka in 2008, both because the old name did not strongly emphasise its association with the College, and because Tanaka was found guilty of fraud the same year.

So it unclear to me why City did not do something similar or at least suggest this option.
City, university of London, business school is a bit of a mouthful isn't it? Most just have one word 'before business school'. For example judge, said, Imperial, Warwick business school etc. Perhaps they were also worried it would be hard to promote the brand if it sounded very similar to London Business School?

Anyhow, as someone who's fond of stats, I quite like Bayes Business School even tho I don't go to Cass. Isn't he buried just next to the business school anyway?
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student_london
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Part of the reason for picking Bayes, is it disconnects with City. I think some Cass alumni and/or staff consider Cass to be a separate entity to City University. City of London School of Management was the best name out of the lot but we are stuck with Bayes. Not a bad name, but I dont see the connection with Cass tbh. He was Alum of Uni of Edin.
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ppapanastasiou
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(Original post by BenRyan99)
City, university of London, business school is a bit of a mouthful isn't it? Most just have one word 'before business school'. For example judge, said, Imperial, Warwick business school etc. Perhaps they were also worried it would be hard to promote the brand if it sounded very similar to London Business School?

Anyhow, as someone who's fond of stats, I quite like Bayes Business School even tho I don't go to Cass. Isn't he buried just next to the business school anyway?
Fair enough. Why not City, Business School then?
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Fair enough. Why not City, Business School then?
Well I think one of the above posters explained it well, I've always heard people who go/went to Cass try to instantly differentiate it from City. Like even if you say oh isn't it a part of City, they'll always go yes and but then emphasize how different it is.

Definitely agree that Bayes is slightly odd considering the Edinburgh link and that they've even got a research center named after him there. I don't think it matters too much tho, perhaps I just have less sympathy for the business school given the crazy fees they charge for master's courses, given the average placement records. Think it's massively overrated anyway but that's just my personal opinion, but I know some that really like it there so who am I to say it isn't good.
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John Bull
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The whole process was dishonest, misleading and lacked transparency. Link to change.org petition:

http://www.change.org/CassBusinessSchool
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by John Bull)
The whole process was dishonest, misleading and lacked transparency. Link to change.org petition:

http://www.change.org/CassBusinessSchool
Is it that bad of a thing for there to be a class action lawsuit, it's just a name change? Maybe it's more of a thing because it's not attached to an elite uni. Like if Stanford GSB changed it to Stanford BS or whatever I don't think people would care to much, perhaps the brand of Cass needs the recognition more than others
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ppapanastasiou
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(Original post by BenRyan99)
Is it that bad of a thing for there to be a class action lawsuit, it's just a name change? Maybe it's more of a thing because it's not attached to an elite uni. Like if Stanford GSB changed it to Stanford BS or whatever I don't think people would care to much, perhaps the brand of Cass needs the recognition more than others
Cass is not Stanford but it is certainly one of the top business schools in the UK. And yes names and reputation are also important.
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Cass is not Stanford but it is certainly one of the top business schools in the UK. And yes names and reputation are also important.
I feel like you're completely missing the point I made.

When people think of Cass, they just think of Cass. Whereas when people think of other business schools, they normally mainly think about the uni they're attached to. So when I think about Warwick Business School, I also think about Warwick University.

So if WBS were to change its name to something like Warwick school of management or something, it doesn't really change my perception. Whereas if Cass changes its name to the Bayes Business School, then that's completely different isn't it. Because it's not attached to a good uni, it's got nothing to fall back on other than its name which is being changed.

I obviously wasn't trying to say Cass is anything like Stanford don't worry. It's not even a top 5 UK business school. I was merely trying to say that Cass' business school name is more important than other business school's names because Cass is attached to a bad uni. I do think it's mildly amusing though that all these people who were happy to pay the over the top fees for Cass are now sad because their degree is not perceived to be less valuable just because of a name change
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ppapanastasiou
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Dear BenRyan99, I also feel you are completely missing my points. For me the logical thing to do was for Cass to go back what it used to be named and that is City, Business School and not Bayes, a person with whom the university has no affiliation. Imperial did the same when they stopped calling themselves Tanaka Business School.

Now to some of your points:
You wrote "It's not even a top 5 UK business school". I would be careful with these kinds of statements. Based on what metric? All I would say is that Cass based on most metrics scores highly and is considered a good business school. Top 5 and top 10 are dangerous statements to make. In terms of research Cass scored highly in the latest REF. In terms of entry requirements Cass requires 35 IB points (which is considered high) for undergraduate degrees and 2:1 and above for master’s degrees. I believe these two points (research and entry requirements) show that Cass is good business school. Now if it is a top 5 or top 10 or top whatever that is based on the metric one chooses (and the choice is subjective). All I would be comfortable to say is that it is a good business school.

You wrote “Cass is attached to a bad uni”. Again, I would be careful with these kinds of statements. City is surely not Oxford. But it is a plate glass university, it does some respectable research (scored not badly at the latest REF) and is a constituent college of the university of London, which enjoys worldwide reputation. I would personally say that City is an average university, and in some areas, it is quite good (i.e. Business School, Journalism, Music, Applied Mathematics and maybe Economics). But again, this is my subjective opinion.

You wrote “people who were happy to pay the over the top fees for Cass”. Once, more I would be careful with these kinds of statements. Yes, Cass is certainly not cheap. But given it is a good business school I don’t think its fees are that expensive or exorbitant. Similar good business schools charge similar fees and sometimes even higher.
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Dear BenRyan99, I also feel you are completely missing my points. For me the logical thing to do was for Cass to go back what it used to be named and that is City, Business School and not Bayes, a person with whom the university has no affiliation. Imperial did the same when they stopped calling themselves Tanaka Business School.

Now to some of your points:
You wrote "It's not even a top 5 UK business school". I would be careful with these kinds of statements. Based on what metric? All I would say is that Cass based on most metrics scores highly and is considered a good business school. Top 5 and top 10 are dangerous statements to make. In terms of research Cass scored highly in the latest REF. In terms of entry requirements Cass requires 35 IB points (which is considered high) for undergraduate degrees and 2:1 and above for master’s degrees. I believe these two points (research and entry requirements) show that Cass is good business school. Now if it is a top 5 or top 10 or top whatever that is based on the metric one chooses (and the choice is subjective). All I would be comfortable to say is that it is a good business school.

You wrote “Cass is attached to a bad uni”. Again, I would be careful with these kinds of statements. City is surely not Oxford. But it is a plate glass university, it does some respectable research (scored not badly at the latest REF) and is a constituent college of the university of London, which enjoys worldwide reputation. I would personally say that City is an average university, and in some areas, it is quite good (i.e. Business School, Journalism, Music, Applied Mathematics and maybe Economics). But again, this is my subjective opinion.

You wrote “people who were happy to pay the over the top fees for Cass”. Once, more I would be careful with these kinds of statements. Yes, Cass is certainly not cheap. But given it is a good business school I don’t think its fees are that expensive or exorbitant. Similar good business schools charge similar fees and sometimes even higher.
You got baited so badly.

Also you're telling me to "be careful" when saying Cass isn't a top5 UK business school, yet in multiple other threads you've said that Cass ranks 7th in the UK in both the FT and the REF. So don't tell me it's dangerous to say it when you've provided the evidence that I'm right on other posts. So hypocritical.

Your evidence that city uni isn't bad is that "it scored not badly in the latest REF", that's hardly a wringing endorsement from you. You also say that Cass' fees aren't that expensive, are you serious. Their two main MBAs cost £51,000 and £46,000 for just 12 months. Maybe you're far wealthier than most but to me that's expensive, especially when compared to a normal degree. Even their general finance courses cost £30,000 a year. Do you honestly think these aren't that expensive when they're the same price or significantly more (in the case of the MBAs) than the median UK income? That's pretty regressive of you!

Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international students wishing to study business in London. Now that they've changed their name, all these people are worried because employers might start judging them based on competence rather than their business school's reputation. You're only worried by this change if you think you're not smart enough to get by without the help of a business school reputation. You still had the same teaching and alumni network, the only thing that has changed is the name and this only impacts reputation so clearly people are worried about being found out as the Cass business charlatans that they are.
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ppapanastasiou
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Dear BenRyan99,

There is a difference saying that Cass ranks 7th on the REF and the FT ranking based on specific metric and stating generally that Cass is not a top 5 UK business school. The first is a conditional ranking on a specific metric, the second is a subjective opinion. That is why I asked, “based on which metric?” and that is why I said I would be very careful with these kinds of general statements which are not conditioned.

Regarding City again based on multiple metrics such as the REF (which is used often as a benchmark since the REF ratings dictate the amount of research funding) City usually finds itself in the middle of the tables. But again, I would be very careful, and I would never state things like top 20 top 30 etc. unconditionally without at least conditioning the ranking on a specific metric.

Also, as stated previously, City is a is a constituent college of the university of London (UoL), which enjoys worldwide reputation. If it is indeed a bad university as you write how come it is a college of the UoL, how come it does respectable research based on the REF and how come people who have 35 IB points and 2:1 or higher choose Cass to study?

Regarding the costs I never said that Cass is cheap. All I said and I quote is “Similar good business schools charge similar fees and sometimes even higher”.

You wrote “Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international students wishing to study business in London”. Again, I would be very careful with such statements which are also disrespectful, to say the least, to people who have studied at this institution. Generalizations such as these are dangerous and, in my opinion, lower the level of discussion. Many respected people are Cass alumni such as Stelios Haji-Ioannou the founder of easyJet.

Finally regarding the name, which is the original question in this thread, once again for me the logical thing to do was for Cass to go back what it used to be named and that is City, Business School and not Bayes, a person with whom the university has no affiliation. Obviously, this is my subjective opinion, but this was the nature of the question, to give our opinion about the name. But I would be very careful when I use general statements such as bad uni, not a top 5 UK business school and untalented international students.
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Dear BenRyan99,

There is a difference saying that Cass ranks 7th on the REF and the FT ranking based on specific metric and stating generally that Cass is not a top 5 UK business school. The first is a conditional ranking on a specific metric, the second is a subjective opinion. That is why I asked, “based on which metric?” and that is why I said I would be very careful with these kinds of general statements which are not conditioned.

Regarding City again based on multiple metrics such as the REF (which is used often as a benchmark since the REF ratings dictate the amount of research funding) City usually finds itself in the middle of the tables. But again, I would be very careful, and I would never state things like top 20 top 30 etc. unconditionally without at least conditioning the ranking on a specific metric.

Also, as stated previously, City is a is a constituent college of the university of London (UoL), which enjoys worldwide reputation. If it is indeed a bad university as you write how come it is a college of the UoL, how come it does respectable research based on the REF and how come people who have 35 IB points and 2:1 or higher choose Cass to study?

Regarding the costs I never said that Cass is cheap. All I said and I quote is “Similar good business schools charge similar fees and sometimes even higher”.

You wrote “Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international students wishing to study business in London”. Again, I would be very careful with such statements which are also disrespectful, to say the least, to people who have studied at this institution. Generalizations such as these are dangerous and, in my opinion, lower the level of discussion. Many respected people are Cass alumni such as Stelios Haji-Ioannou the founder of easyJet.

Finally regarding the name, which is the original question in this thread, once again for me the logical thing to do was for Cass to go back what it used to be named and that is City, Business School and not Bayes, a person with whom the university has no affiliation. Obviously, this is my subjective opinion, but this was the nature of the question, to give our opinion about the name. But I would be very careful when I use general statements such as bad uni, not a top 5 UK business school and untalented international students.
Even after I said you were being baited, you still bit on my reply haha. I'm just trying to get you to write more of these long responses where you say things like "be very careful" and put phrases in bold, it's amusing.

You say that using metrics such as the FT or REF rankings aren't comparable to saying how a business school generally ranks is a bit silly given you've done the same on other threads. Surely if multiple rankings have Cass outside the top5, it's probably likely it is outside the top5, otherwise rankings are literally useless. If it depends on what exact metrics one uses then surely everyone has a different criteria and there is no business school that is really better than any other, this would also mean that us offering advice on forums is useless because everyone has their own truth. Clearly this isn't the case, how many people do you honestly think would turn down places like Oxford, Cambridge, LBS, ICBS, WBS and then other non-business school MSc finance courses like at LSE and UCL, to go to Cass. It's so obviously not a top5 that, you trying to argue that it depends on the metric used, just makes your argument look silly. Please tell me to be careful about what I'm saying 🤣

City is a joke of a uni when it comes to recruiting into economics and finance positions. It being part of the UoL is also a silly thing to use as a benefit, the only benefit I can see is that you can use multiple libraries, that's it! The fact that you use things like people needing an IB score of 35 or a 2.1 just further invalidates your arguments. An IB of 35 is the same as ABB, that's very average and even below what many financial organisations have as their minimum a-level grade requirements. Then using a 2.1 for master's entry is also silly, 80% of UK undergrads get a 2.1 or above, it's basically clapping an institution that only filters out the bottom 20% of applicants, hardly impressive.

In terms of fees, they're much better business schools that charge the same fees as Cass so for the quality of education you get, it's still expensive relative to other institutions. I wonder why, it's almost like most international students want to study in London so Cass can charge a premium beyond what it's quality suggests it should charge.

Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international students wishing to study business in London. This is true and everyone in industry knows it, not to say that there aren't some good students there, there obviously are, it's just the fees mean you're filtering out all the good candidates, and the actually good candidates tend to go into business without a master's anyway. The fact that you have a alumni examples is amusing, any university can name some successful alumni, you should be focusing on the median alumni not only one at the top, even a GCSE maths student could tell that what you said is misleading.

The whole reason why people are complaining is that they didn't want it to go back to its old name as they saw being linked to City as devaluing their uni degree's reputation. If even Cass students and alumni think being linked to City is bad enough that they want to file lawsuits, this shows how mediocre City is as an institution. Why would you wanna link your Bschool to an average uni, it's silly.

I thank you for your opinion on me being careful with my statements, however I think I'll carefully decline your suggestions. Prospective students deserve to know what they're getting themselves into and you sugarcoating everything about these institutions with some snowflake nonsense about "nothing is actually that bad it just depends on the metric" is not helpful to students, students come here for advice and clarity regarding something they know nothing about, you giving this wishy-washy "City is a good uni" argument is misleading students - everyone knows it's average at very best and that in the business world you need an education far above average.
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ppapanastasiou
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Dear BenRyan99
Again, I am sorry, but you are missing my points.

You wrote “you to write more of these long responses… put phrases in bold”. I don’t see why a long response is a problem and why putting things in bold is a problem. Your replies are also not short, and you also started using bolds. I don’t see an issue with that. You are just trying to make a point.

You wrote “You say that using metrics such as the FT or REF rankings aren't comparable to saying how a business school generally ranks”. I never said that. All I said is that when you say that Cass is not a top 5 UK business school without conditioning it on a specific metric it is just a subjective opinion.

You wrote “City is a joke of a uni” Again, I would be very careful with such generic and insulting statements.

You wrote “An IB of 35 is the same as ABB”. Well if that is the case how come Cass requires AAA in A-levels or 35 IB points for almost all undergrad degrees. Your statement is not correct. For example have a look here: https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/study/un...ourses/finance.

You wrote “In terms of fees, they're much better business schools that charge the same fees”. That is your subjective statement. I would argue that the fees that Cass charges are on par with other similar good business schools. Since my statement is also subjective, I agree that we disagree here.

You wrote “Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international”. I will not further comment again on this insulting statement.

You wrote ” as they saw being linked to City as devaluing their uni degree's reputation: Well if that is the case how come I have no problem with it being called City, Business School and in fact I am proposing this as an alternative to Bayes? I don’t see City as a devaluation. City is a college of the UoL similar to Birkbeck, Goldsmiths, Kings, LBS, LSE, Queen Mary, Royal Holloway, SOAS and UCL. All these colleges are in my opinion respectable institutions, wouldn't you agree?

All in all, Cass is regarded as a good business school. Now if it is a top 5, top 10 or top whatever is highly subjective, and I would be very careful when I use absolute rankings without at least conditioning my statement on a specific metric.
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BenRyan99
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Dear BenRyan99
Again, I am sorry, but you are missing my points.

You wrote “you to write more of these long responses… put phrases in bold”. I don’t see why a long response is a problem and why putting things in bold is a problem. Your replies are also not short, and you also started using bolds. I don’t see an issue with that. You are just trying to make a point.

You wrote “You say that using metrics such as the FT or REF rankings aren't comparable to saying how a business school generally ranks”. I never said that. All I said is that when you say that Cass is not a top 5 UK business school without conditioning it on a specific metric it is just a subjective opinion.

You wrote “City is a joke of a uni” Again, I would be very careful with such generic and insulting statements.

You wrote “An IB of 35 is the same as ABB”. Well if that is the case how come Cass requires AAA in A-levels or 35 IB points for almost all undergrad degrees. Your statement is not correct. For example have a look here: https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/study/un...ourses/finance.

You wrote “In terms of fees, they're much better business schools that charge the same fees”. That is your subjective statement. I would argue that the fees that Cass charges are on par with other similar good business schools. Since my statement is also subjective, I agree that we disagree here.

You wrote “Cass has long been a place that takes advantage of the wealthy but untalented international”. I will not further comment again on this insulting statement.

You wrote ” as they saw being linked to City as devaluing their uni degree's reputation: Well if that is the case how come I have no problem with it being called City, Business School and in fact I am proposing this as an alternative to Bayes? I don’t see City as a devaluation. City is a college of the UoL similar to Birkbeck, Goldsmiths, Kings, LBS, LSE, Queen Mary, Royal Holloway, SOAS and UCL. All these colleges are in my opinion respectable institutions, wouldn't you agree?

All in all, Cass is regarded as a good business school. Now if it is a top 5, top 10 or top whatever is highly subjective, and I would be very careful when I use absolute rankings without at least conditioning my statement on a specific metric.
Can you tell me to be careful again, please, just once more?

This link is the actual A-level to IB conversion, the fact that Cass asks for AAA or a 35 is just proving my point that it targets international students for the fees, they literally offer easier entry requirements because the domestic fees are capped at 9.25k.

https://www.grb.uk.com/recruiter-res...el-equivalents

Are we in agreement then that saying it isn't top5 is subjective and that when everyone has the same subjective opinion that it's not top5, then the statement starts to become objective.

Just because you don't mind it being linked to City, doesn't mean everyone thinks that. If nobody minded it being linked to City then why were there threats of a class action lawsuit against the business school if it was going to have City in the title? Clearly the consensus was that alumni and students didn't want it to be linked to City because they perceive Cass as being better than City. Furthermore, only about half of those UoL unis are any good (LSE, UCL, kings and LBS), kings isn't even good for business subjects, QMUL and Birkbeck are okay in economics and finance, the rest barely deserve the title of University.

You can't just completely dismiss the way aggregate preferences are determined in society. I can tell you've never heard of Borda counts or Condorcet voting. Clearly if almost everyone has the same subjective opinion, this becomes the aggregate opinion. Just because yours is heterodox, doesn't mean that your advice is correct for the median student. You should be careful 😅
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ppapanastasiou
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Dear BenRyan99,

You wrote: “An IB of 35 is the same as ABB”. Your statement implies that Cass asks for ABB, I showed to you that Cass actually asks for AAA for most of its undergraduate degrees. So your statement is false. If you want to discuss about A level equivalence guides and how one translates from one system to another we can do that also, but that is a different discussion.

You wrote: “If nobody minded it being linked to City then why were there threats of a class action lawsuit against the business school if it was going to have City in the title?” Forgive me but again your facts are not right. If you follow the petition link in the thread (see previous post) the petition is for Cass not to be named Bayes Business School, not about not to be named City, Business School. Your statement is again false.
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(Original post by ppapanastasiou)
Dear BenRyan99,

You wrote: “An IB of 35 is the same as ABB”. Your statement implies that Cass asks for ABB, I showed to you that Cass actually asks for AAA for most of its undergraduate degrees. So your statement is false. If you want to discuss about A level equivalence guides and how one translates from one system to another we can do that also, but that is a different discussion.

You wrote: “If nobody minded it being linked to City then why were there threats of a class action lawsuit against the business school if it was going to have City in the title?” Forgive me but again your facts are not right. If you follow the petition link in the thread (see previous post) the petition is for Cass not to be named Bayes Business School, not about not to be named City, Business School. Your statement is again false.
You didn't tell me to be careful 😭

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/u...-requirements/

Surely you have to think it's a bit fishy that they ask for AAA, yet everywhere I've looked an IB of 35 is not equal to AAA? Beyond the link I sent before, this one from an official UK university (University of Manchester) shows that even they see an IB score of 35 as AAB. So again, this proves my point that Cass asks for a higher grade from those who take a-levels (mainly UK students who pay lower fees), than what they ask from people who take the IB (typically international students who pay triple the fees).

You completely misunderstood what I said, you explained "Your statement implies that Cass asks for ABB, I showed to you that Cass actually asks for AAA". My point wasn't that they were asking for ABB, my point is that they're asking for a higher equivalent grade from those who take a-levels, than those who take the IB. The fact that you say things like "your statement is false" after misunderstanding what I said and then me providing multiple links proving that an IB of 35 isn't equivalent to AAA so the fact that Cass asks for them in a way that implies their equivalence is really poor from a university that's trying to maximise their tuition fees at the expense of domestic students.

It seems we're looking at different petitions, the one I'm looking at on 38degrees is them warning Cass not to change it to anything related to City. If we are indeed looking at different petitions then either we're both right or we're both wrong 😅. But again, your wording of saying "Your statement is again false" would be very harsh if we're looking at different petitions. It would also imply that your accusation of my statement being false, is in itself false if we're looking at different lawsuit petitions, this would technically make your statement false 😉
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ppapanastasiou
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Dear BenRyan99,

Initially this is what you wrote: “An IB of 35 is the same as ABB”. This statement implies that Cass requires ABB which is clearly incorrect. Cass requires AAA. Later when you saw that this statement is incorrect (or misleading if you will) you started opening a different discussion about A level equivalence guides and international students getting in with lower entry grades. If you want, we can discuss about this also, but first let’s agree that Cass requires AAA for most its undergraduate degrees. Do you agree with this statement?

If you look at the first post from John Bull which started this thread it is about the name Change of Cass to Bayes Business School (and some other names which were eventually not chosen). But nowhere is there (at least in this thread) a discussion of explicitly not changing the name to City, Business School. In his third post John Bull gave the link to the petition which I attach for your convenience:

http://www.change.org/CassBusinessSchool

All that the petition demands is to retain the Cass Business School name. As far as I am aware there is no other petition of not explicitly changing the name to City, Business School but if you or 38degrees would like to start such a petition you are obviously free to do so.
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