The Cambridge Chat Thread

Wait, if you do Japanese you must have noticed the error on Francis Nolan's last handout, where he called ga an "honourific suffix." I asked him what he meant by that, and as I thought he thought it was like o- or go-, rather being a subject marker of sorts. He was saying one year there were two Japanese people doing phonetics, who got into massive arguments because their dialects were so different.

Reply 1662

Miam!

Supergrunch

Wait, if you do Japanese you must have noticed the error on Francis Nolan's last handout, where he called ga an "honourific suffix." I asked him what he meant by that, and as I thought he thought it was like o- or go-, rather being a subject marker of sorts. He was saying one year there were two Japanese people doing phonetics, who got into massive arguments because their dialects were so different.

Yes, the particle -ga is a subject marker, not a honorific. I just thought he must have confused it with go- (which is indeed a honorific just like o. But it's a prefix). I guess these errors must happen quite often in linguistics, when the focus is the sound of the word and not its meaning, and the example are taken from really rare/obscure languages.

As for the Japanese disagreeing over phonetics, I can see why they would argue over these examples. While *lexically*, educated Japanese can all speak standard Japanese, the dialectal differences in pitch can be very big (and these examples were illustrating pitch, which is non-phonemic :smile:

).

Reply 1663

Miam!

Yes, the particle -ga is a subject marker, not a honorific. I just thought he must have confused it with go- (which is indeed a honorific just like o. But it's a prefix). I guess these errors must happen quite often in linguistics, when the focus is the sound of the word and not its meaning, and the example are taken from really rare/obscure languages.

As for the Japanese disagreeing over phonetics, I can see why they would argue over these examples. While *lexically*, educated Japanese can all speak standard Japanese, the dialectal differences in pitch can be very big (and these examples were illustrating pitch, which is non-phonemic :smile:

).

Yep, I think he just didn't realise the function of ga - actually, that kind of thing is pretty damn important for syntax, but not for phonetics.

Anyway, I'll have to disagree with you and say that tone in Japanese is to some extent phonemic, as you can see in, say, the pronunciation of 見当 (guess) versus that of 検討 (examination); though both are orthographically けんとう, which I'll render as "keNtoo", the first has a LHHL stress pattern and the other has a LHHH stress pattern. So they form a minimal pair - you mark 見当 as having an accent on the first o, as this is where the stress drops - "keNtóo." What's interesting is that the N mora nasal usually can't take accent, but it can in the Kansai dialects, hence leading to possible arguments... :wink:

Reply 1664

Craghyrax

OP

17

Ye gads, the intellectual depth of this thread seems to exponentially increase proportional to the length of term... :lolwut:

And my first draft is due tomorrow at 10. Have I started?

Reply 1665

Scipio90

Craghyrax

Ye gads, the intellectual depth of this thread seems to exponentially increase proportional to the length of term... :lolwut:

*takes log of thread to check*

Reply 1666

ukebert

So far today, apart from lecctures and my disastous presentation, I have done my plan for the next week and have sorted out my notes.

I think it a big improvement that I haven't convinced myself that this has been productive :p:

Reply 1667

Miam!

Supergrunch

Yep, I think he just didn't realise the function of ga - actually, that kind of thing is pretty damn important for syntax, but not for phonetics.

Anyway, I'll have to disagree with you and say that tone in Japanese is to some extent phonemic, as you can see in, say, the pronunciation of 見当 (guess) versus that of 検討 (examination); though both are orthographically けんとう, which I'll render as "keNtoo", the first has a LHHL stress pattern and the other has a LHHH stress pattern. So they form a minimal pair - you mark 見当 as having an accent on the first o, as this is where the stress drops - "keNtóo." What's interesting is that the N mora nasal usually can't take accent, but it can in the Kansai dialects, hence leading to possible arguments... :wink:

I know of these minimal pairs, there's also hashi which can mean 'bridge' and 'chopsticks' depending on pitch, but these words are the exception. But I still think it's right to say it's not phonemic - for example, foreigners regularly get the pitch all wrong, but they're still understandable because the pitch-ambiguous words are so few that context will make it clear which one they mean - I just said that pitch was not phonemic to simplify, because if you just go around saying "pitch is phonemic in Japanese", you would put it on par with Chinese :smile:

Didn't know about N taking accents or not depending on dialect though.

Reply 1668

Craghyrax

OP

17

Off to the library :work:

Throw rocks at me if I return.

Reply 1669

Scipio90

Craghyrax

Off to the library :work:

Throw rocks at me if I return.

At last, a use for geology :biggrin:

Reply 1670

ukebert

I have chocolate once more :biggrin:

Sainsbury's evidently said to themselves: "Owen hasn't been here in weeks. Lets put all the things he likes on special offer so that he buys too much stuff".

Reply 1671

Y__

ukebert

I have chocolate once more :biggrin:

Sainsbury's evidently said to themselves: "Owen hasn't been here in weeks. Lets put all the things he likes on special offer so that he buys too much stuff".

Ah, I've been meaning to ask you at the meet, but forgot: What is a "CertGSMD in Piano"?

Reply 1672

Zhen Lin

12

Miam!

I know of these minimal pairs, there's also hashi which can mean 'bridge' and 'chopsticks' depending on pitch, but these words are the exception. But I still think it's right to say it's not phonemic - for example, foreigners regularly get the pitch all wrong, but they're still understandable because the pitch-ambiguous words are so few that context will make it clear which one they mean - I just said that pitch was not phonemic to simplify, because if you just go around saying "pitch is phonemic in Japanese", you would put it on par with Chinese :smile:

Didn't know about N taking accents or not depending on dialect though.

Things don't have to be black and white - why can't you have different levels of pitch phonemicity? Japanese is not unique in having pitch accent, nor is Chinese the only type of tonal system around. (And, there are Chinese languages which have essentially pitch accent, e.g. Shanghainese.)

Reply 1673

ebam_uk

20

ukebert

God I hate mondays. Exposition, 2 hours of lectures and 2 supervisions.

Lol, my monday was even longer, 2 hrs of Exposition, 2 hours of lectures, then 3 hours of structural design project. Then to top it off, we had a tripos class also scheduled which the supervisor didnt turn up to so a waste of time! Eek!

Reply 1674

Tom

15

Y__

Ah, I've been meaning to ask you at the meet, but forgot: What is a "CertGSMD in Piano"?

Cert has gotta be certificate. GSMD is probably something like Guild School of Music and Dance?

I should probably let ukebert answer though :p:

Reply 1675

Miam!

I know of these minimal pairs, there's also hashi which can mean 'bridge' and 'chopsticks' depending on pitch, but these words are the exception. But I still think it's right to say it's not phonemic - for example, foreigners regularly get the pitch all wrong, but they're still understandable because the pitch-ambiguous words are so few that context will make it clear which one they mean - I just said that pitch was not phonemic to simplify, because if you just go around saying "pitch is phonemic in Japanese", you would put it on par with Chinese :smile:

Didn't know about N taking accents or not depending on dialect though.

Yeah, pitch doesn't play a great part, but I'm sure there's sufficent evidence for some kind of prosodemes in Japanese - certainly more so than in English, and there people use the stress contrast between, say, 'abstract and ab'stract as evidence for them. As Zhen Lin says, there's no need for it to be binary - Japanese isn't tonal, but saying that pitch isn't phonemic is too much of a simplification really. Sure, foreigners can still be understood if they get the pitch wrong, but I know and understand plenty of foreigners who get particular English phonemes totally wrong.

Anyway, I'll relent on intellectual discussions because they're distracting me from my many essays. :p:

I think when this term ends I'll just go to sleep for about a day...

Reply 1676

ukebert

Y__

Ah, I've been meaning to ask you at the meet, but forgot: What is a "CertGSMD in Piano"?

Certificate of the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. It's a Diploma in Piano performance. It's the next level beyond Grade 8, you have to do a 40 minute assessed recital in London. It's tough, and I didn't do a very good job of it. I am really tempted to try for the next level diploma (the Licentiate) just so that I could really do my best, but I probably won't get round to it.

Tom

Cert has gotta be certificate. GSMD is probably something like Guild School of Music and Dance?

I should probably let ukebert answer though :p:

Close

ebam_uk

Lol, my monday was even longer, 2 hrs of Exposition, 2 hours of lectures, then 3 hours of structural design project. Then to top it off, we had a tripos class also scheduled which the supervisor didnt turn up to so a waste of time! Eek!

Ouch

Congratulations by the way :biggrin:

How did you find the Mech paper? We are all agreed that it is bloody difficult, although obviously I have found it more difficult than most. At the moment I think I'm ranked second last, after the guy who is not really fluent in English...

I had the worst supervision ever today. Well, not quite, the Maths was easy, but I made a critical mistake. I assumed that because we had only been taught the Maths necessary to do the last 3 questions that morning that I wouldn't have to do them for the supervision. I was wrong. My excuses got analysed, I was criticised for going away a few weeks ago and my supervisor ended by declaring that he thought I was sslipping. On the basis of 3 questions. Ovbviously I am slipping, but I've been slipping for weeks :p:

I rather like this supervisor actually, now that I more or less know how to work him, but this I wasn't expecting.

Reply 1677

Y__

Ah, I see.

I actually had a look at the Fudge Kitchen today, is their stuff worth the ridiculous amounts they're charging for it? 14.99 for a box of 4 slices? I mean, c'mon...

Reply 1678