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Original post by Choo.choo
Taking benefits (or money) away from people that need help is not attacking the poor? Seriously?
What about the tax cut offered to millionaires by the Tories, which Ed Balls today announced he would reverse if Labour win next year?


Tax rate under labour for millionaires was 40%. Later upped to 50% when they knew they weren't going to get back into power and in the full knowledge that whoever came into power would have to lower it. Research the Laffer curve.

Top tax rate for millionaires under the present givernment is 45%. The SNP have promised to lower it even further.

The present givernment have lowered tax liabilities for lower income families.
Original post by Libertatem
There have been a few (and I mean, very few) polls that have won in support for independence. Not every poll has been won in support for the union, but I do concede that majority have.


Only one poll showed support. It was commissioned by the SNP and conducted by panelbase in August 2013. Even the SNP have distanced themselves from it as it was so skewed and biased that not even they were able to openly support it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

One factor that also needs to be taken into account when using panelbase polls is that its an online poll that you have to register to take part in. Panelbase has had to stop new people registering as they have realised that the cyberNat community were coordinating efforts to derail a truthful outcome.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/panelbase-bans-new-members-from-independence-polls-1-3080830
Original post by Choo.choo
I mean that they are making a poor decision. Not they are "mad mentally" as in they are nuts.


You have to ask yourself the question if you hold a
Minority viewpoint about whether or not your opinion is actually at fault.

Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.
Original post by MatureStudent36
You have to ask yourself the question if you hold a
Minority viewpoint about whether or not your opinion is actually at fault.

Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.


Not much you can do. Everyone will have to accept the outcome of the referendum.
Original post by Choo.choo
Really? Denmark and the UK don't have the euro currency. Why were they not forced to join?


:rolleyes: Plain ignorance here. The current treaty of the EU requires any new member state to commit to joining the Euro. :tongue: You won't be forced to join, but at some point in Scotland's future you will have the euro.
Original post by FinalMH
:rolleyes: Plain ignorance here. The current treaty of the EU requires any new member state to commit to joining the Euro. :tongue: You won't be forced to join, but at some point in Scotland's future you will have the euro.


You are entitled to your opinion, but your assertion is just absolute nonsense.
A future, independent Scotland will be able to adopt its own currency - that is, whatever currency it chooses. We do not have to choose a currency that someone tells an independent Scotland to join. That is not how it works.
Original post by MatureStudent36

Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.


How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.
Personally I think we would be well shot of Scotland. They have done nothing but whinge for nearly two millenia. Even the Romans had the sense not to occupy the place. What concerns me is that our treasury is still going to be under writing their national debt. That is not true independence.
Original post by Choo.choo
Not much you can do. Everyone will have to accept the outcome of the referendum.


Yet you still make claims of 'when we vote yes.'

It's good to see that you're starting to accept reality. You may actually start to realise that claims being made by the SNP are only desired outcomes. Third parties will have inputs into those. Such as claims of currency unions, EU opt outs being continued wtc are desired outcomes. Not facts.
Original post by Choo.choo
How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.


I don't doubt they will. But when opinion polls show no desire for it, if a no vote is returned in September which is most likely to be the outcome, how do they continue to campaign for it when the evidence says they won't get it.
Reply 5410
Original post by Choo.choo
We do not have to choose a currency that someone tells an independent Scotland to join. That is not how it works.


Entirely correct, but you may very well not get into the European Union then. No one can force a currency on a state, but you have to realise actions have consequences.
Original post by L i b
Entirely correct, but you may very well not get into the European Union then. No one can force a currency on a state, but you have to realise actions have consequences.


For heaven's sake, I'll say it again: "The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Stop this silly scaremongering, it is pointless.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Choo.choo
For heaven's sake, I'll say it again: "The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Stop this silly scaremongering, it is pointless.


"The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Whilst again we are not arguing with this statement. As you should be aware these opt-outs where negotiated in the treaty of Maastricht (enshrined in the treaty) in 1993. No country which has applied for membership of the EU has been allowed to keep their currency since the treaty.

A legal path for Scotland to keep the opt-out for currency is if it is allowed to keep all current opt-outs of the United Kingdom, which is doubtful. (28 Members states agreeing to that?) Another method would be a new treaty, which most likely won't go in Scotland favor.

:mad: One thing I don't like about this debate, is when you pose any question to the nationalist they just jump to this "scaremongering". Also just to clarify I am not saying Scotland will have the euro straight away, but at some point in time, scotland will have the euro.

:s-smilie: Why is it that nationalist believe everything will be perfect when 2016 comes lol
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
I don't doubt they will. But when opinion polls show no desire for it, if a no vote is returned in September which is most likely to be the outcome, how do they continue to campaign for it when the evidence says they won't get it.


They do what Choo Choo does and insult those who disagree.


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Original post by Old_Simon
Personally I think we would be well shot of Scotland. They have done nothing but whinge for nearly two millenia. Even the Romans had the sense not to occupy the place. What concerns me is that our treasury is still going to be under writing their national debt. That is not true independence.


Legend.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Choo.choo
How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.


The debate will be over for at least a generation. This is not the sort of issue that will be allowed to fester on a continuing basis, nor one that the people of Scotland are likely to change their minds on quickly.
Original post by Choo.choo
For heaven's sake, I'll say it again: "The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Stop this silly scaremongering, it is pointless.


If I had £1 for every time an SNP supporter had used "scaremongering" I'd be a very happy (and wealthier) man.

Try to be realistic, or you'll start to look foolish. The difference is, of course, that Britain and Denmark were negotiating from within, and a position of strength. The other members could not stomach either of them leaving. Scotland's position will be far, far weaker. Frankly it won't be very significant to anyone, except perhaps the UK, whether Scotland joins (though I can imagine the Spanish might have an axe to grind against accession) and there certainly won't be any concessions flying around in order to entice them in.

The expectation is that any new member will have to sign up to join the euro in due course (with no opt-outs available) though, as Sweden and others have shown, there are ways to postpone that day - and a lack of convergence is one of them.
I just hope they all disappear in a flurry of Braveheart Mel Gibson inspired, kilt wearing, haggis eating, bagpipe playing Celtic nostalgia and then at last they will stop blaming England for everything.
Original post by Good bloke
If I had £1 for every time an SNP supporter had used "scaremongering" I'd be a very happy (and wealthier) man.

Try to be realistic, or you'll start to look foolish. The difference is, of course, that Britain and Denmark were negotiating from within, and a position of strength. The other members could not stomach either of them leaving. Scotland's position will be far, far weaker. Frankly it won't be very significant to anyone, except perhaps the UK, whether Scotland joins (though I can imagine the Spanish might have an axe to grind against accession) and there certainly won't be any concessions flying around in order to entice them in.

The expectation is that any new member will have to sign up to join the euro in due course (with no opt-outs available) though, as Sweden and others have shown, there are ways to postpone that day - and a lack of convergence is one of them.


People keep on going on about the Spanish. There's several other nations such as Cyprus who have been even more blunt and to the point.

You think the UK is the only one with this issue?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

This seems to be a by product of a. More global world. Some minority groupings in all countries are suffering from an inability to cope with the modern world and are becoming more inward looking and being drawn to identity politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics
Original post by Choo.choo
They are absolutely mad to reject independence. Why would you want to stop your own country that you care so much from self-determination?


Because no-one in these isles would actually benefit from independence. We'd be breaking up a highly successful union, merely to appease a few nutters.

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