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I just saw the Yaya article in a way I do see where he's coming from.
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Original post by sevchenko
I can't say for sure Arsenal won't drop points but I'm certain Everton will lose more than us. Hopefully Utd and City will do the damage, they've both got more than enough incentive to beat Everton
Our form is improving now that we've got a bit of confidence back. Ozil, Diaby and Ramsey being back will only boost the team and make our offensive play much better. We've been flat track bullies for most of the season
Our form is improving now that we've got a bit of confidence back. Ozil, Diaby and Ramsey being back will only boost the team and make our offensive play much better. We've been flat track bullies for most of the season
Not sure that we will lose to City or United. Last season we beat both at Goodison and we've beaten United at Old Trafford as well this season. They don't have a huge amount to play for either , since it looks unlikely they will get a Champions League place or even a Europa League place ( if they even want that as it would probably create problems next season)
Sure, they will , but there still seems to be a lack of confidence up front and Giroud is mid table quality at best , which can leave you vulnerable. Hull away is often a tricky game ( a fixture we have as well) , and Norwich and Brom will be desperatly trying to escape relegation.
Original post by Kruz
It seems like nobody at Goodison Park is missing Moyes at all. Is it fair to say he was holding you guys back?
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Its a difficult one. I think Martinez has been prepared to gamble more on young players ( Barkley, Stones) which has helped us this season as well as the excellent loans ( Lukaku, Barry, Deulefeu). I think Moyes annoyed a lot of our fans in the way he came back for Fellaini and Baines. It's karma in my opinion that Baines has been strong and Fellaini has been **** this season - and there is no way he was worth £28 million.
Original post by Kenan and Kel
If they finish sixth (very possible if we beat them), how different is it to any other season under Moyes? Besides the fact that they're playing better football and playing to win 
We've beaten the highest points in a season that Moyes got anc looked good doing it. United are 9 points behind us so personally see it as unlikely you will catch us. It will take a run of wins to do it.
Original post by sevchenko
True, Bare in mind he's still living off Moyes's back five. People forget Moyes signed those players and they're performing slightly better than last season. tbh I don't like all this hype over Martinez, he'll get exposed in 2 season time
Everton did play in the CL but got knocked out by Villarreal in the qualifying rounds playoff. A similar thing would happen even if they qualified this year.*
Everton did play in the CL but got knocked out by Villarreal in the qualifying rounds playoff. A similar thing would happen even if they qualified this year.*
I also remember that included a rather dodgy decision that went their way as well
Original post by 419
But it is worth pointing out that Weah is the only African player that has finished in the top 3 in the history of WPOTY.
He isn't, Eto'o finished 3rd in 2005. (If we look at black players and not African, then there's also Henry who finished 2nd twice but I guess that's not the argument).
Original post by little_tom
Just because they don't finish that high in WPOTY doesn't mean they aren't shown recognition. The voting system is flawed: its decided by coaches, players and journalists, and the outcome (more often than not) is hardly something you would want to use to make this point. This is similar to when everyone used to say Ronaldo doesn't get his "deserved recognition" because he finished second in the Ballon D'or for 4 years.
Just because they don't finish that high in WPOTY doesn't mean they aren't shown recognition. The voting system is flawed: its decided by coaches, players and journalists, and the outcome (more often than not) is hardly something you would want to use to make this point. This is similar to when everyone used to say Ronaldo doesn't get his "deserved recognition" because he finished second in the Ballon D'or for 4 years.
The voting process itself is fine, it's just that people wrongly expect there to be some kind of criteria (there isn't) and the voters going by that rather than their impression of who the best player in the world is in general. Also, nowadays people overrate it as some sort of seal of approval that a player deserves and earns (as in should and must get) if he performs on a certain level, and think it is "unfair" or "unrepresentative" if the player didn't get it, while in fact it's just some meaningless accolade or bonus that gets overhyped on the internet.
But about at that FIFA BdO claim, CAF is the biggest football association and thus has the most votes in the voting. Looking at the votes from the CAF countries from last year's BdO, you do see Yaya getting a few votes here and there but the large majority of those votes went to CRonaldo, Messi, Ribéry. Same goes for the years before that. So the African voters show roughly the same voting behaviour as other oters. Thus it probably doesn't have anything to do with racial bias. What plays more into that BdO thing is the focus on European football and on the teams that dominate it. (Or, in WC years, on dominant national teams). Since the FIFA BdO was introduced the winners all came from Barcelona, Real and Bayern, which happen to be the teams that dominated European football (not Real but CRonaldo is a bit of an exception). Looking Fifa WPOTY winners in the years before that then that trend continues with Barcelona, United, Milan etc. And in all those cases the best player of that particular team got it, who happened to be white.
So yeah, there's nothing to see there wrt the BdO.
About the Xavi/Iniesta comments, not sure what he means as they've both been majorly criticised especially for their defensive input in Spain for several years. Obviously not in England but then the Spanish press doesn't criticise Yaya for his defensive workrate at City either, and they didn't criticise him more than other players when he played for Barça. And the bit about Messi being more well-known than himself in Africa, well duh. That probably applies for Asia and Asian players, Europe and European players etc as well.
But I get where he is coming from and I think he has a point in general. I also agree with 419's point that there's still that cliché that African players are powerhouses, engines etc but not technical wizards.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Kruz
It seems like nobody at Goodison Park is missing Moyes at all. Is it fair to say he was holding you guys back?
I remember their youth team coach tearing into him on Twitter - he never showed an interest in the youth team, he set up not to lose rather than to win, and his tactics consisted of hoofing the ball up to Fellaini.
Not expecting us to get anything from there, our recent record at Goodison is really poor (1 win in our last 5 visits) and we all know what Moyes is like away to the top teams. I'm just waiting for him to come out and say something like ''Everton are on the level we aspire to be''. Would be funny if Fellaini scored the winner though.
Original post by NDGAARONDI
And how many defenders get the Ballon d'Or? Neither Baresi nor Maldini won it.
Good point. It's a biased system that only favours fast technical attacking players, or full on goal scoring machines.
Original post by jam277
Good point. It's a biased system that only favours fast technical attacking players, or full on goal scoring machines.
And Beckenbauer had some attacking aspects of football in his game, so that leaves just Cannavaro and Sammer.
Original post by NDGAARONDI
And Beckenbauer had some attacking aspects of football in his game, so that leaves just Cannavaro and Sammer.
With that bit, Beckenbauer I'm guessing won the world cup.
When a team wins the world cup and there's no obvious attacking threat, they give it to the captain.
Anyway, Viera and Maka should have been in the mix but it'll just be boring if they gave it to top level defensive midfielders.
Original post by jam277
With that bit, Beckenbauer I'm guessing won the world cup.
When a team wins the world cup and there's no obvious attacking threat, they give it to the captain.
Anyway, Viera and Maka should have been in the mix but it'll just be boring if they gave it to top level defensive midfielders.
When a team wins the world cup and there's no obvious attacking threat, they give it to the captain.
Anyway, Viera and Maka should have been in the mix but it'll just be boring if they gave it to top level defensive midfielders.
Just like Cannavaro then.
Most people are focusing on the award part of my point. I admit that that point was rather clutching on straw and I did say that I don't really care about his points irt to personal accolades. Just wanting to point out that you can see why THEY ('they' because if the likes of Drogba and Eto'o are asked to comment on this, I believe they'll give similar response) feel under appreciated as this individual awards are actually important to the players..
I forgot that until recently there were 2 awards. My point is true for the original balon d'or (Gerrard came 3rd in 2005) whilst yours is true for the FPTY. Actually, it's 3 for FPTY Weah came second in 1996
Same number (FPTY) or more (Ballon d'Or) as African players.
My main point is that football is still generally a European and South American thing and players from outside these region are still looking in from the outside so, they will be undervalued and having to do twice as much to get same level of recognition. West Africa is the historically next hotbed of producing top footballing talents after the aforementioned two so, it'll be silly to just dismiss Yaya's point.
-------
Saying all this, I wonder how many people know about Samuel Kuffour. 'Pele' certainly didn't.
Original post by qua
He isn't, Eto'o finished 3rd in 2005. (If we look at black players and not African, then there's also Henry who finished 2nd twice but I guess that's not the argument).
I forgot that until recently there were 2 awards. My point is true for the original balon d'or (Gerrard came 3rd in 2005) whilst yours is true for the FPTY. Actually, it's 3 for FPTY Weah came second in 1996
Original post by NDGAARONDI
And how many defenders get the Ballon d'Or? Neither Baresi nor Maldini won it.
Same number (FPTY) or more (Ballon d'Or) as African players.
My main point is that football is still generally a European and South American thing and players from outside these region are still looking in from the outside so, they will be undervalued and having to do twice as much to get same level of recognition. West Africa is the historically next hotbed of producing top footballing talents after the aforementioned two so, it'll be silly to just dismiss Yaya's point.
-------
Saying all this, I wonder how many people know about Samuel Kuffour. 'Pele' certainly didn't.
(edited 10 years ago)
That's weird. Even I didn't know about Samuel Kuffour.
I also think that African players are being made to play as workhorses as teams exploit their stamina/physical prowess. I reckon if you made them play a bit more technical they would. But their training from being near the equator and general prejudice(Toure is as technical as he is power, and his fitness isn't even that great as he's dead after one lung bursting run)
Seidyou Keita was a player who was very technical, same for Toure, you don't play as a regular in the Barca team if you are not.
I also think that African players are being made to play as workhorses as teams exploit their stamina/physical prowess. I reckon if you made them play a bit more technical they would. But their training from being near the equator and general prejudice(Toure is as technical as he is power, and his fitness isn't even that great as he's dead after one lung bursting run)
Seidyou Keita was a player who was very technical, same for Toure, you don't play as a regular in the Barca team if you are not.
Oh I'm not dismissing it, just don't think it's unique. I remember a similar thing a year or so ago about the lack of premiership footballers with Asian heritage. It is so bad that people thought Asian was referring to Japan and South Korea when it meant India and Pakistan.
Original post by 419
-------
Saying all this, I wonder how many people know about Samuel Kuffour. 'Pele' certainly didn't.
-------
Saying all this, I wonder how many people know about Samuel Kuffour. 'Pele' certainly didn't.
I only remember mainly due to him hitting the ground in 1999 when Bayern Munich lost to Manchester United, and only a little bit from watching Bayern in the late 90's/ early 2000's.
Original post by 419
Saying all this, I wonder how many people know about Samuel Kuffour. 'Pele' certainly didn't.
Strange to think people don't know about Sammy. He's an absolute Bundesliga legend and especially Bayern fans still adore him. I guess he suffered from playing in the BuLi as that league wasn't as prestigious back then, although he was crucial in the CL & the Intercontinental Cup win.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by qua
Strange to think people don't know about Sammy. He's still seen as an absolute Bundesliga legend in Germany and especially among Bayern fans. I guess he suffered from playing in the BuLi as that league wasn't as prestigious back then, although he was crucial in the CL win.
Honestly. When people tell me to name the best African defenders. "Who's that?" is invariably the answer when I throw his name.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by NDGAARONDI
Oh I'm not dismissing it, just don't think it's unique. I remember a similar thing a year or so ago about the lack of premiership footballers with Asian heritage. It is so bad that people thought Asian was referring to Japan and South Korea when it meant India and Pakistan.
Oh yeah, that's really inexcusable and if people want to accuse Britain football for been racist with lack of Asian kids in professional football. I'll be more willing to back it definitely much more than Sol Campbell and Jason Roberts movement.
I see as much Asain kids equally as good and if not better at all amateur levels.
Original post by 419
Honestly. When people tell be to name the best African defenders. "Who's that?" is invariably the answer when I throw his name.
Definitely one of the best, I'd also say Bayern's best (or at least most dedicated) defender in recent history bar Lahm (and potentially Alaba).
He's also a legend off the pitch, for me the most likeable Bayern player by far
Original post by qua
But I get where he is coming from and I think he has a point in general. I also agree with 419's point that there's still that cliché that African players are powerhouses, engines etc but not technical wizards.
But I get where he is coming from and I think he has a point in general. I also agree with 419's point that there's still that cliché that African players are powerhouses, engines etc but not technical wizards.
It's a cliche but the best African players do tend to fit into that description if you think about it, that perception has come from people using their eyes.
Generally top Spanish players are considered to be diminutive, technically gifted, slow etc because most of them are. Generally Scandinavian footballers are seen to be hard working, physically robust, tactically astute and well organised whilst lacking flair because most of them are to greater or lesser degrees in that box. It is not some anti-Spanish prejudice that stops us seeing all the Iberian 6'4, box to box engines, nor anti-Norwegian sentiment that stops us seeing their flamboyant, individualistic dribblers.
Frustration that there are exceptions to these cliches is one thing, but to feign confusion as to where these perceptions, even to see racism, is ludicrous really.
Original post by Zürich
It's a cliche but the best African players do tend to fit into that description if you think about it, that perception has come from people using their eyes.
Generally top Spanish players are considered to be diminutive, technically gifted, slow etc because most of them are. Generally Scandinavian footballers are seen to be hard working, physically robust, tactically astute and well organised whilst lacking flair because most of them are to greater or lesser degrees in that box. It is not some anti-Spanish prejudice that stops us seeing all the Iberian 6'4, box to box engines, nor anti-Norwegian sentiment that stops us seeing their flamboyant, individualistic dribblers.
Frustration that there are exceptions to these cliches is one thing, but to feign confusion as to where these perceptions, even to see racism, is ludicrous really.
Generally top Spanish players are considered to be diminutive, technically gifted, slow etc because most of them are. Generally Scandinavian footballers are seen to be hard working, physically robust, tactically astute and well organised whilst lacking flair because most of them are to greater or lesser degrees in that box. It is not some anti-Spanish prejudice that stops us seeing all the Iberian 6'4, box to box engines, nor anti-Norwegian sentiment that stops us seeing their flamboyant, individualistic dribblers.
Frustration that there are exceptions to these cliches is one thing, but to feign confusion as to where these perceptions, even to see racism, is ludicrous really.
Wasn't implying that that was motivated by racism at all (I don't think it is), and I agree the clichés are based on truth mostly. But I do think that in some cases African/black players tend to get reduced to their physical attributes. Keita for example is talked about as a "powerhouse", "engine" etc although his technical ability was just as great imo. Of course praising one thing doesn't mean one ignores/excludes the other and in Spain especially that physical strength is rarer than technical ability which is why that gets more noticed, but I can see why some black players would complain about it.
Guess that's getting a little off-topic now though.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by shawn_o1
If arsenal had beaten villa (h), Swansea (h), Stoke (a), West Brom (a) and Southampton (a), they'd be 12 points better off and the heavy defeats to Liverpool/City/Chelsea wouldn't be an issue
Tbf stoke away is not a fixture you have done well in over recent times, they seem to have the knowhow to beat you at the Britannia.
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