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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV
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Original post by tsr1269
I believe HAMAS targets the military, does it not?
No, it sends rockets randomly into Israel, targeting civilians. They may not do a very good job of actually killing people, partly due to the iron dome and partly due to their own ineptitude, but they still target civilians and that is their philosophy. That is half of the reason I don't support them.
It is. It is what the current government of Israel takes it's inspiration and positions from. If they are saying that there will be no Palestinian State, regardless of whether it is tyrannical or a liberal, then there is no question of a Palestinian State ever existing.
I seem to recall that Benjamin Netanyahu actually conceded that a state of Palestine could exist, albeit without a military and as long as Jerusalem remains unified as Israel's capital. Regardless, that is not the main block to a state of Palestine. The main block is the attitude of the Palestinian resistance movement and its political ideals.
HAMAS has called for the destruction of the State of Israel, in their Charter, not Jews.
See this page, and its sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
Hamas want to destroy Israel and everything about it. They will not be happy until all the Jews of Israel (and other religious minorities, for that matter) are living as dhimmis in their future Islamic state. It is as good as a genocide; the destruction of a culture through violence against civilians, and the subjugation of its survivors under their barbaric law.
Original post by Chindits
Islamic fundamentalism is a danger to us all.
Hamas has a global Jihad ideology like Al Qaeda and the other offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Israel is seen as a spanner in the works of the caliphate and "pure Islamic lands".
Other minorities have been chased out. The Christians have been left with just a few pockets here and there.
Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the founders of Hamas told Jeremy Bowen in an interview a few years ago that "Islam is coming for Europe and there's nothing you can do about it"
The 'palestinians' see themselves as the epicentre of this. Israel is hated by the majority of Muslims not because of the conflict with 'palestinians' (after all, the Arab world in general hates the 'palestinians) it's because Israel is a barrier to their contiguous caliphate plans.
This is why I don't believe land for peace will work. It has never worked when Israel has tried it. The 'palestinians' (or 'Arabs' as they were back then) were killing Jewish villagers 100 years ago. Long before Israel, settlements, occupation or blockades.
It's Islamic fundamentalism that this is about.
Hamas has a global Jihad ideology like Al Qaeda and the other offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Israel is seen as a spanner in the works of the caliphate and "pure Islamic lands".
Other minorities have been chased out. The Christians have been left with just a few pockets here and there.
Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the founders of Hamas told Jeremy Bowen in an interview a few years ago that "Islam is coming for Europe and there's nothing you can do about it"
The 'palestinians' see themselves as the epicentre of this. Israel is hated by the majority of Muslims not because of the conflict with 'palestinians' (after all, the Arab world in general hates the 'palestinians) it's because Israel is a barrier to their contiguous caliphate plans.
This is why I don't believe land for peace will work. It has never worked when Israel has tried it. The 'palestinians' (or 'Arabs' as they were back then) were killing Jewish villagers 100 years ago. Long before Israel, settlements, occupation or blockades.
It's Islamic fundamentalism that this is about.
Yes. We are all aware of your views on HAMAS as freedom fighters.
Original post by felamaslen
No, it sends rockets randomly into Israel, targeting civilians. They may not do a very good job of actually killing people, partly due to the iron dome and partly due to their own ineptitude, but they still target civilians and that is their philosophy. That is half of the reason I don't support them.
Are you sure? Because there was a couple of news report saying that their rockets had attacked military bases. There is also, I believe, an Israeli equivalent of a D-Notice when these attacks to happen.
I seem to recall that Benjamin Netanyahu actually conceded that a state of Palestine could exist, albeit without a military and as long as Jerusalem remains unified as Israel's capital. Regardless, that is not the main block to a state of Palestine. The main block is the attitude of the Palestinian resistance movement and its political ideals.
I'm confused: Are HAMAS fighting for liberation of Palestine or Islam?
See this page, and its sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
Hamas want to destroy Israel and everything about it. They will not be happy until all the Jews of Israel (and other religious minorities, for that matter) are living as dhimmis in their future Islamic state. It is as good as a genocide; the destruction of a culture through violence against civilians, and the subjugation of its survivors under their barbaric law.
Hamas want to destroy Israel and everything about it. They will not be happy until all the Jews of Israel (and other religious minorities, for that matter) are living as dhimmis in their future Islamic state. It is as good as a genocide; the destruction of a culture through violence against civilians, and the subjugation of its survivors under their barbaric law.
There's nothing about the "destruction or genocide of Jews". You must be reading something that is not there.
Why has this thread suddenly started on Islamists? It's like people here don't want to actually discuss the Palestine/Israel conflict and just write Palestine off as another "Islamist" state....
Original post by castlemadeofsand
I dare you to actually read a book instead of claiming that you read them.
You can't help yourself can you?
Original post by castlemadeofsand
A little bit of intellectual digging and you will indeed see that the society created by Muhammed and carried on by several of his followers was one of the most egalitarian societies in the world at that time.
Try responding to what I said, not what I didn't say. I was plainly referring to how Arab culture manifests itself in the world TODAY, not 1600 years ago!
Original post by castlemadeofsand
The concept of a domineering male having power over his wife that you put forward isn't something that is unique to parts of the Arab world and can be seen across the globe and even in our own country.
Again respond to what I said, don't make it up to suit yourself! You know I was referring to the three Abrahamic religions, a point I made in response to your initial comment about Islam being much more gender egalitarian than Judaism and Christianity. You need to learn a discussion involves a dialogue, not a bit of disparagement followed by unrelated points masquerading as relevant responses to my points.
Original post by castlemadeofsand
Indeed the Qu'ran does encourage the covering of parts of the female body (not to the extent that some countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia insist upon) in order to protect the female from the male. The fact that an originally well intentioned part of a religion has been distorted for ulterior purposes, in this case to ensure the hegemony of the male in societies that were male dominated before Islam and are still male dominated) also isn't unique to Islam and can be seen within all the Abrahamic religions.
Totally nothing to do with my initial response to what you said. Can you please try and concentrate on the points at hand instead of going off on a tangent. It seems like you are presuming to guess my views. How patronizing.
Original post by castlemadeofsand
Actually, if you read the Guardian's current coverage of the conflict instead of just relying on stereotypes and long debunked automatic phrases, you'd find that it is generally in line with the position of most of the mainstream media.
You have know idea what I read and what I don't so stop pretending. The only "stereotyping" going on is you stereotyping me as some ignorant Westerner whose understanding of the topic must be lacking, especially when it is contra to your own. The rest of your statement is vague generalisation.
[QUOTE=castlemadeofsand;48597350]You don't actually reply to any of the points I made and you just reply with a lot of substance-less waffles. The ironic fact is that it demonstrates the point I was trying to make at the beginning of my first reply that behind the same generic defences of Israel's actions in these offences, there isn't really much to them and so easily crumble in the face of exposure, especially by someone who is merely repeating them and incapable of their own individual reflection.
That is just it, I did go to the trouble of addressing your particular points. How you managed to overlook that puzzles me. I have to conclude the entire exercise has been a waste of my time because of your childish efforts to gain ground by rude remarks, your patronising assumptions about what I know and think: incredibly stereotypical and wide of the mark. You seriously need to try and contain your argument to the points of response. Falsely attributing words to another is either lazy because you cannot be bothered to read the person's reply properly, or just purposefully disingenuous.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by tsr1269
Are you sure? Because there was a couple of news report saying that their rockets had attacked military bases. There is also, I believe, an Israeli equivalent of a D-Notice when these attacks to happen.
Hamas celebrate civilian deaths (e.g. they celebrated the deaths of the three Israeli teens). To them, the enemy is Israelis. Of course they'd be happy if they hit the IDF, but any Jew is fair game to them. (And indeed any Israeli Arab, it seems.) The equivalent people on the Israeli side are the most extreme, fanatical wing of the radical Zionist movement - not the people in charge of Israel.
I'm confused: Are HAMAS fighting for liberation of Palestine or Islam?
Hamas are fighting against the liberation of Palestine and for the imposition of Islamic law on the portion of the Levant which currently is free of it. Their idea of "liberation" is religious conquest.
There's nothing about the "destruction or genocide of Jews". You must be reading something that is not there.
Why has this thread suddenly started on Islamists? It's like people here don't want to actually discuss the Palestine/Israel conflict and just write Palestine off as another "Islamist" state....
Why has this thread suddenly started on Islamists? It's like people here don't want to actually discuss the Palestine/Israel conflict and just write Palestine off as another "Islamist" state....
Just because they don't use the specific word genocide, does not mean that they are not genocidal. Destroying a modern country and replacing it with an iron age tyranny, is genocide, even if nobody is killed (it would then be a genocide of culture) - not that people wouldn't be killed en-masse if they were given the upper hand.
And are you seriously denying the connection between Hamas and Islamism? Remember, Hamas, the Islamist organisation which runs the Gaza strip?
The illegitimate terrorist nation has started a ground offensive.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582
Original post by felamaslen
Hamas celebrate civilian deaths (e.g. they celebrated the deaths of the three Israeli teens). To them, the enemy is Israelis. Of course they'd be happy if they hit the IDF, but any Jew is fair game to them. (And indeed any Israeli Arab, it seems.) The equivalent people on the Israeli side are the most extreme, fanatical wing of the radical Zionist movement - not the people in charge of Israel.
That's funny. I didn't hear about that. I assume you have a link?
Hamas are fighting against the liberation of Palestine and for the imposition of Islamic law on the portion of the Levant which currently is free of it. Their idea of "liberation" is religious conquest.
And this matters to you how?
Just because they don't use the specific word genocide, does not mean that they are not genocidal. Destroying a modern country and replacing it with an iron age tyranny, is genocide, even if nobody is killed (it would then be a genocide of culture) - not that people wouldn't be killed en-masse if they were given the upper hand.
Is it genocide if they "destroy a modern country and replace it with an even more liberal democracy"?
And are you seriously denying the connection between Hamas and Islamism? Remember, Hamas, the Islamist organisation which runs the Gaza strip?
HAMAS just happens to be an organisation who campaigns on Islamic grounds, no different to those Christians who campaign on a Christian ticket or an atheist who places special emphasis on the glories of Science.
There was no evidence against Hamas in the case of the murder of the three Israeli teenagers
Hamas denies planning or ordering the murder of the three and Hamas is well known for taking responsibly.
If every Tom, Dick and Harry that throws a rock or fires a rocket into Israel is Hamas then the Jews who burned the innocent boy alive is IDF.
You can't expect no "terrorism" if you win a war but refuse to define your borders - and then throw off the savages into ghettos - then build a wall and police over it. In Gaza "terrorists" throw home-made rockets into the land they have lost while from Israel terrorists are free to target any dot.
Israel doesn't need jihadists trying their best to hide their weapons - they have an army and the weaponry a million times more powerful and blessings from a superpower. Gaza is not allowed an army without Israel invading to destroy it - and you accept the Palestinians to be your puppies.
Israel is the only &&%@&&@& in the universe to have the guts to distribute leaflets and warnings to their neighbours to leave their homes and everything because they have killed enough civilians already. Ludicrous. Imagine the Russian separatists doing this in Ukraine!
Israel is the only *#-#*#-£- in the universe to have the guts to kill children literally in front of the eyes of the world and then solve the issue with an apology.
Hamas denies planning or ordering the murder of the three and Hamas is well known for taking responsibly.
If every Tom, Dick and Harry that throws a rock or fires a rocket into Israel is Hamas then the Jews who burned the innocent boy alive is IDF.
You can't expect no "terrorism" if you win a war but refuse to define your borders - and then throw off the savages into ghettos - then build a wall and police over it. In Gaza "terrorists" throw home-made rockets into the land they have lost while from Israel terrorists are free to target any dot.
Israel doesn't need jihadists trying their best to hide their weapons - they have an army and the weaponry a million times more powerful and blessings from a superpower. Gaza is not allowed an army without Israel invading to destroy it - and you accept the Palestinians to be your puppies.
Israel is the only &&%@&&@& in the universe to have the guts to distribute leaflets and warnings to their neighbours to leave their homes and everything because they have killed enough civilians already. Ludicrous. Imagine the Russian separatists doing this in Ukraine!
Israel is the only *#-#*#-£- in the universe to have the guts to kill children literally in front of the eyes of the world and then solve the issue with an apology.
Original post by RoyalBlue7
There was no evidence against Hamas in the case of the murder of the three Israeli teenagers
They know who did it and they're being hidden.
The general rule of thumb is that Israeli security forces are smarter than you by a mile and know exactly who carried this out.
Egypt lays blame on Hamas
The Egyptian foreign minister said Thursday that Hamas is at fault for the IDF's need to enter Gaza in a ground operation.
"Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian proposal, it could have saved the lives of at least 40 Palestinians," said Sameh Shoukri, Egypt's FM, as reported by Egyptian state news agency MENA.
"Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian proposal, it could have saved the lives of at least 40 Palestinians," said Sameh Shoukri, Egypt's FM, as reported by Egyptian state news agency MENA.
Original post by tsr1269
That's funny. I didn't hear about that. I assume you have a link?
Well you can trawl through the Wikipedia page for the recent event if you like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers
For example: Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum called the kidnappers "heroes".
Other than that, you must be joking or being deliberately obtuse if you're claiming that Hamas don't enjoy the deaths of Israeli civilians (why else would they throw rockets at them?).
And this matters to you how?
I want the world to be free of medieval, barbaric law. I want people to be able to lead truly liberated lives in the 21st century.
Is it genocide if they "destroy a modern country and replace it with an even more liberal democracy"?
What a ridiculous question. Hamas don't understand liberal democracy, let alone believe in it. That aside, from a hypothetical perspective, if you are asking whether or not a revolution is worth it against a liberal democracy, if it is done in order to make it more liberal and more democratic, my answer would be generally "no", because the revolution has much more of a chance of screwing everything up that existed before. As for whether or not it would count as a genocide, I would still say yes, because it is the wholesale destruction of a good, free society (i.e. a genocide of ideas). Once a liberal democracy is established, the way to improve it is by civil debate, not violence.
HAMAS just happens to be an organisation who campaigns on Islamic grounds, no different to those Christians who campaign on a Christian ticket or an atheist who places special emphasis on the glories of Science.
They happen to be an organisation which wants to re-establish an Islamic caliphate in the Levant once Israel is destroyed. How on earth is that comparable to, say, being anti-abortion or pro-science?
Original post by RoyalBlue7
If every Tom, Dick and Harry that throws a rock or fires a rocket into Israel is Hamas then the Jews who burned the innocent boy alive is IDF.
It's not all Hamas; some of it is Islamic Jihad and other groups / individuals. The difference is, Hamas endorses and engages in rocket fire. The IDF don't endorse the horrific revenge murder of that Palestinian teenager.
eh ? thought there was a ceasefire
Egypt lays blame on Hamas
The Egyptian foreign minister said Thursday that Hamas is at fault for the IDF's need to enter Gaza in a ground operation.
"Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian proposal, it could have saved the lives of at least 40 Palestinians," said Sameh Shoukri, Egypt's FM, as reported by Egyptian state news agency MENA.
"Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian proposal, it could have saved the lives of at least 40 Palestinians," said Sameh Shoukri, Egypt's FM, as reported by Egyptian state news agency MENA.
I myself find it hard not to sympathise with Israel, but interested to see where the general vote of support lies on TSR.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Palestine, as most of the Palestinian people have nothing to do with Hamas etc. One Israeli has been killed in this latest compared to the many Palestinians, many of them innocent children.
Israel's solution is always to crack a nut with a sledge hammer.
Israel's solution is always to crack a nut with a sledge hammer.
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