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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Before you can think about satisfying your sexual needs you must first satisfy your thirst and your hunger.

I don't know about democracy and whether it is favoured by the Palestinians but you can't say that Fatah or Hamas doesn't care for the welfare of their people, if you mean that. That's just absurd. Why do you assume that all Islamist movements desire ruling with an iron fist or something. Democracy is no more than a century old I guess while the method of governing using a Caliphate is more than a 1000 years old - can't say "old" - but the point is that it does not necessary mean people living in a modern day Caliphate will be forever stuck in some iron age place. A caliphate has already proved that "democracy" is not necessary for scientific advancements and the likes.

The caliphate is older than democracy in a similar way to how a horse and cart is older than a train as a method of transport. The analogy is flawed somewhat but you get the idea.

It seems that you don't understand what democracy is either. It has nothing to do with welfare. It is about allowing people to live a life free from tyranny, with free speech, regular, free and fair elections, private property rights and other key features of a free society which were invented in the past few hundred years.

It is not about having independence, then sorting out the democracy as an afterthought. It is about pushing those ideals as the crux of your movement for independence. Gandhi didn't win against the British by setting up a tyranny or an Islamist state. (OK, there are many problems with India, but it is a relatively free country and has most of the core aspects of a liberal democracy). Nelson Mandela didn't win against the apartheid regime by building a tyranny. He also built a vibrant, multiparty liberal democracy (albeit a flawed one with a very high crime rate).

Show me a movement for Palestinian statehood which is supportive of these ideals and I will back it.

Reply 641

honestly

20

extremely sad conflict with no hope in my eyes (let's be honest) the injury and loss of life is sad.

Reply 642

Teema

Original post by felamaslen

It's in the Hamas covenant to destroy Israel and set up an Islamic state in its place. Please show me where Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, because it would be a complete repudiation of their founding principle.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047

[h="2"]Wednesday's reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas recognizes the existence of Israel and is based on the two-state model, says Jibril Rajoub.[/h]By Haaretz | Apr. 24, 2014 | 2:10 PM.

Reply 643

RoyalBlue7

19

Original post by felamaslen

What has social welfare got to do with genuinely accepting a two state solution? Also, you're not attacking my fundamental objection to Hamas, which is that they are not liberal democrats. All of the above looks indistinguishable from Soviet or pro-Castro (for example) agitprop. I'm interested in (a) whether they are actually willing to accept the existence of Israel alongside a Palestinian state, and, even more importantly, (b) whether or not their Palestinian state will be liberal and democratic.

Well I just read this:

Original post by felamaslen

Negotiation does not work, because Hamas are not interested in improving the lives of Palestinians, they are interested in destroying Israel.

And I couldn't see how "Hamas are not interested in improving the lives of Palestinians".

Why do you assume a "democracy" is the best form of governance? It could work - it could fail.

Original post by felamaslen

All very wishy washy and unconvincing. Hamas would have to turn into something unrecognisable from what they were 20 years ago to have a hope of gaining my sympathy or support. I find zero evidence anywhere that they are liberal or democrats, or that they don't target civilians (yes, throwing rockets randomly is targeting civilians, even if the IDF or nobody gets hit by them).

I won't disagree with you there. But those aren't the terrorists of today. By the way it may interest you to know that I am not a Zionist or a Jew. (Well, I am a Jew by heritage, but not religious or anything.)

They don't have the capabilities to "target" from the air. If they would have its not hard to see why they would target innocent Israelis and why they wouldn't. I believe that they wouldn't be that foolish. That's my belief.

Hamas has to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. There's no way forward if they don't. I agree.

I don't care whether you are Jew or not. Even though the Zionism of today pisses off a lot of people around the world especially Muslims - unlike some other Muslims I believe that Israel has a right to exist but that they should bear the damages that goes along with a victory in a war and they should stop violating international law of any kind (air strikes, settlement building) and they should accept a two state solution if it arises and that they should expect a return to war because that was how they "conquered" Palestine. They should also be refused protection against the ICC and should be punished for any violation of human Rights.

Reply 644

RoyalBlue7

19

Original post by felamaslen

It seems that you don't understand what democracy is either. It has nothing to do with welfare. It is about allowing people to live a life free from tyranny, with free speech, regular, free and fair elections, private property rights and other key features of a free society which were invented in the past few hundred years.

Invented?

These are not exclusive to "liberal" "democracy". What did democracy and nationalism do to the Middle East? Some systems of governance don't just work for some people. Simples.

Reply 645

felamaslen

15

Original post by RoyalBlue7

Invented?

These are not exclusive to "liberal" "democracy". What did democracy and nationalism do to the Middle East? Some systems of governance don't just work for some people. Simples.

Don't confuse democracy with nationalism! Extreme nationalism is a curse and an enemy of democracy. Anyway you can see what liberal democracy did to the middle east by looking at how successful and free Israel is in comparison to its neighbours. E.g. a vibrant economy, great inventions, liberated culture (including gay rights), etc. - far beyond what the KSA, Sudan, Jordan or Lebanon have to offer. And it's nothing to do with the people. There are large numbers of Israeli Arabs, no different genetically to the Palestinians (well, we're all pretty similar anyway...) who enjoy these freedoms too.

Oh and yes, the concept of a liberal democracy was invented, by many people but principally France, the US and the UK.

Reply 646

Chindits

Original post by Qari

been watching news lately and something has got me curious. (kind of a conspiracy nut)

the news and Israel are saying Hamas fired rockets but where are they, I mean apart from Israel claiming it they ahven't really shown any proof well the BBC hasn't so how do we know if these rockets actually exist?
Apparently Israel have been able to stop them but that sounds ludicrous I mean how could they stop every single rocket that has been launched?
also the fact that only one person died from a gaza mortar strike. I'm thankful for the low amount of death but 1 anyone who knows about weapons should know that seems a bit ...........

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e3_1405217735

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=04e_1404958616

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e4_1405275347

Here they are firing from an 'ice cream cart'

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d2_1405234476

Of course if it was hit in a retaliatory strike - the Pallywood production company and the complicit BBC would tell the world how Israel bombed a poor wee ice cream seller.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=455_1405593229

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1405377572

Now Imagine that 200 times a day.

Damage

The reason there aren't hundreds of Israelis dead, is because they're living in bomb shelters and have Iron Dome.

If Israel was to act "proportionately" (as many people keep parroting) and replied to each 'palestinian' rocket with the same unguided rocket into Gaza, you'd see thousands dead within two days.

Reply 647

interact

15

Original post by Chindits

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e3_1405217735

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=04e_1404958616

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e4_1405275347

Here they are firing from an 'ice cream cart'

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d2_1405234476

Of course if it was hit in a retaliatory strike - the Pallywood production company and the complicit BBC would tell the world how Israel bombed a poor wee ice cream seller.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=455_1405593229

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1405377572

Now Imagine that 200 times a day.

Damage

The reason there aren't hundreds of Israelis dead, is because they're living in bomb shelters and have Iron Dome.

If Israel was to act "proportionately" (as many people keep parroting) and replied to each 'palestinian' rocket with the same unguided rocket into Gaza, you'd see thousands dead within two days.

was there house on stolen, illegal land?

Reply 648

Chindits

Original post by interact

was there house on stolen, illegal land?

All 'palestinian' homes are on stolen land because Israel is not geographically in Arabia yet there are Arabian squatters claiming land that is not theirs :smile:

Reply 649

felamaslen

15

Original post by RoyalBlue7

Well I just read this:

And I couldn't see how "Hamas are not interested in improving the lives of Palestinians".

Why do you assume a "democracy" is the best form of governance? It could work - it could fail.

I meant it in the broader sense of building a free and prosperous nation which exists happily alongside Israel. By the way, your argument about welfare is absurd anyway, given that Hamas also spend a lot of money on rockets, making the situation of the Palestinians more and more dire.

I don't assume it is the best form of governance. I know it is, from past evidence. Or as Winston Churchill put it, it is the worst form of governance, apart from all the others.

They don't have the capabilities to "target" from the air. If they would have its not hard to see why they would target innocent Israelis and why they wouldn't. I believe that they wouldn't be that foolish. That's my belief.

Hamas has to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. There's no way forward if they don't. I agree.

I don't care whether you are Jew or not. Even though the Zionism of today pisses off a lot of people around the world especially Muslims - unlike some other Muslims I believe that Israel has a right to exist but that they should bear the damages that goes along with a victory in a war and they should stop violating international law of any kind (air strikes, settlement building) and they should accept a two state solution if it arises and that they should expect a return to war because that was how they "conquered" Palestine. They should also be refused protection against the ICC and should be punished for any violation of human Rights.

I agree with much of what you say, but I think you're naive to believe that Hamas would tolerate any kind of Jewish state, and also you don't really value a free society as I do. And I suppose that is what lies at the heart of the conflict; a conflict of values more than anything else.

Reply 650

interact

15

Original post by Chindits

All 'palestinian' homes are on stolen land because Israel is not geographically in Arabia yet there are Arabian squatters claiming land that is not theirs :smile:

hows that then when israelis and palestinians share 90% DNA?

Reply 651

AutVinceriAutMori

13

Original post by Chindits

All 'palestinian' homes are on stolen land because Israel is not geographically in Arabia yet there are Arabian squatters claiming land that is not theirs :smile:

What the actual **** "Arabia"? Some sort of an enclosed zone where Arabs are allowed to live? Anywhere else they have no claim to, like for instance, Egypt, which is geographically in North Africa, and yet is home to many Arabs. I can only assume you're trolling.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 652

Chindits

Original post by interact

hows that then when israelis and palestinians share 90% DNA?

Humans and chimps share 97%

Reply 653

Chindits

Original post by AutVinceriAutMori

What the actual fcuk "Arabia"? Some sort of an enclosed zone where Arabs are allowed to live? Anywhere else they have no claim to, like for instance, Egypt, which is geographically in North Africa, and yet is home to many Arabs. I can only assume you're trolling.

Ah, so Arabs are allowed to roam....conquer, pillage - but Jews aren't allowed to migrate?

I seeeeee. :wink:

Reply 654

AutVinceriAutMori

13

Original post by Chindits

Ah, so Arabs are allowed to roam....conquer, pillage - but Jews aren't allowed to migrate

I seeeeee. :wink:

I'm sorry, but where exactly does it say that Arabs are allowed to conquer and pillage? So far the pillage has been on the opposite side, children killed as they are playing on the beach. Oh, but I guess their lives don't count because a) they are Arabs and b) it's all the fault of Hamas.
Moreover, your generalisation and demonisation of Arabs smacks of racial intolerance and hypocrisy. If I have said same about Israeli government (not Jews, mind you, because I can see the difference between the actions of the state and individual) you would have been crying about racism and anti- Semitism. And yet when you speak about all Arabs as if they are one person and are collectively responsible for something, it's acceptable.
To me it says a lot more about you than Arabs.

Reply 655

Qari

20

Original post by Chindits

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e3_1405217735

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=04e_1404958616

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e4_1405275347

Here they are firing from an 'ice cream cart'

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d2_1405234476

Of course if it was hit in a retaliatory strike - the Pallywood production company and the complicit BBC would tell the world how Israel bombed a poor wee ice cream seller.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=455_1405593229

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1405377572

Now Imagine that 200 times a day.

Damage

The reason there aren't hundreds of Israelis dead, is because they're living in bomb shelters and have Iron Dome.

If Israel was to act "proportionately" (as many people keep parroting) and replied to each 'palestinian' rocket with the same unguided rocket into Gaza, you'd see thousands dead within two days.

Thanks, for the links
And how does iron dome work? I thought it was just a project name. And it hacked the rockets guidance sustem.somehow

Reply 656

Chindits

Original post by Qari

Thanks, for the links
And how does iron dome work? I thought it was just a project name. And it hacked the rockets guidance sustem.somehow

Well, there are plenty of vids and wiki on how it works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

But if you can't be bothered, then here's a short version.

Radar detects incoming rocket

Computer works out the trajectory and point of impact

If point of impact is unpopulated area, then no interception.

If heading for population, computer works out which battery of Iron Dome situated in the country is best to deal with the rocket.

Battery then sends a rocket to intercept which homes in on the rocket and tracks its flight even if it veers off course.

Intercept explodes next to rocket and shatters it.

Iron Beam should be fun when it comes online.

It's a laser version.

Reply 657

Chindits

Original post by AutVinceriAutMori

I'm sorry, but where exactly does it say that Arabs are allowed to conquer and pillage? So far the pillage has been on the opposite side, children killed as they are playing on the beach. Oh, but I guess their lives don't count because a) they are Arabs and b) it's all the fault of Hamas.
Moreover, your generalisation and demonisation of Arabs smacks of racial intolerance and hypocrisy. If I have said same about Israeli government (not Jews, mind you, because I can see the difference between the actions of the state and individual) you would have been crying about racism and anti- Semitism. And yet when you speak about all Arabs as if they are one person and are collectively responsible for something, it's acceptable.
To me it says a lot more about you than Arabs.

Calm down dear.

First of all, civilians will die in all conflicts. Children included.

80 children died on that Malaysian plane.

2,000 palestinians have died in Syria. Many starved to death, blockaded by their fellow Arabs.

In response to V2 rockets from Germany, the British fire bombed whole German cities killing tens of thousands of civilians.

All I'm saying is that the Arabs didn't get to control the whole middle east because they were invited to do so. They invaded the region and north Africa, displacing the indigenous population like Jews, Christians and Berbers.

So I always find it funny when people talk about Jews migrating to Israel, yet the Arabs did a lot of migrating, but usually through conquering.

Reply 658

Qari

20

Original post by Chindits

Well, there are plenty of vids and wiki on how it works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

But if you can't be bothered, then here's a short version.

Radar detects incoming rocket

Computer works out the trajectory and point of impact

If point of impact is unpopulated area, then no interception.

If heading for population, computer works out which battery of Iron Dome situated in the country is best to deal with the rocket.

Battery then sends a rocket to intercept which homes in on the rocket and tracks its flight even if it veers off course.

Intercept explodes next to rocket and shatters it.

Iron Beam should be fun when it comes online.

It's a laser version.

Ah right well doesn't that just cause projectilea to fly off?
But i guess it's better than rocket hitting people.
i'd love to know how they made those. (physics of it fascinates me)

Reply 659

Jammy Duel

21

Original post by Qari

Ah right well doesn't that just cause projectilea to fly off?
But i guess it's better than rocket hitting people.
i'd love to know how they made those. (physics of it fascinates me)

It's nothing particularly special, if you can track a target and direct your own weapon with in flight control all you have to do is hook up both systems to the same computer.

The laser one does the same sort of thing, but uses a laser to heat up the fuel to make the rocket blow up. Tbh, I don't see it being practical enough for wide spread use, maybe just as a last resort or something given inverse square laws and the likes. Potential hazzards are there too, and it has been in development for soooooooooo long now with somewhat limited success.

EDIT: Iron beam is expected to be installed next year, but is reserved for targets too small for iron dome, it's a secondary system for lesser threats in essence. It has measly range of 7K m (which means they are unlikely to add mlre civil aviation shoot downs to their list with it) vs dome's 70, although they wish to make dome cover 100 miles.
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(edited 9 years ago)

The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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