The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Oh stop it, read an article showing that people were happily taking selfies when the sirens went off in Israel.

I also stated that the "degree or extent to which each point manifests itself may be controversial".

Imagine a ludicrous situation where you have all of those present but to a minimalist degree, and another country goes the other extreme and is "very liberal" whilst the 3rd treads the middle path.

Which one is not a liberal democracy?

I've made my point and I believe you have understood. In order to not derail this thread, I shall be discontinuing this discussion at this moment. If you have more issues to discuss regarding Israel/Palestine, I;ll love to discuss it.

Yes I think it is fair to call Hamas terrorists - though it may be an unneccessarily emotive term.

Well, the EU, Australia, Canada, USA, Japan and others all list them as a terrorist group. Nothing emotive about that. I can't think how strapping a bomb onto yourself and deliberately walking onto a bus full of civilians is.

Do you think the 7/7 bomber were terrorists? or is that a bit too "emotive" for you?


Except for the fact that Israel has gone through years and billions of dollars to design weapons that minimise civilian casualties. Missiles with a small blast radius. Some which implode rather than explode. Missiles that can be aborted even after being fired to save civilian lives.

Telephone calls, texts, leaflet drops, roof-knocks. All designed to cause the least amount of civilian casualties.

Hamas on the other hand, pack ball bearings into their rockets to maximise indiscriminate casualties.


palestinian terrorism against Jews preceded settlements, occupation and even the state of Israel itself.



More aid per capita than anyone else on earth. A 16% increase in obesity rates in Gaza.

An estimated (by the UN) $2 billion spent on rockets and tunnels.



palestinian terrorism presceded settlements, occupation and the state of Israel itself.

No matter how you try and cut it, they were raiding Jewish villages decades before Israel was reestablished.




They voted for Hamas when Gaza was unoccupied and borders were open. They essentially voted for Hamas when Gaza was having its best period.



Food is not blockaded. No palestinian in Gaza has died from hunger.



Israel pulled out in 2005. Open borders until 2007. The palestinians had two years to prove themselves and spent it terrorising Israel instead.

Blockade came because of terrorism.



Nonsense. The blockade is legal as per the Palmer report. Please don't post complete nonsense like this.

yes because this photo absolutely proves Israel uses weapons that minimise civilian casualties right?

Get out of your Hasbara war room please or is that scholarship really needed by you that badly?

If Israel cared about civilians, the casualties would not be 80% civilians regardless of any unsubstantiated claims you make about Hamas using civilians as human shields by placing rockets near them. These rockets are hardly lethal and yet the Israelis are more than happy to kill civilians with them and take lives over them.

Oh so you think the Gazans are somehow healthier now because obesity rates went up? You do realise you could become obese eating only corn starch but you'd be incredibly unhealthy like these Gazans are due to the starvation they face. Besides 16% up from what? Total emaciation?

You use the term 'Palestinians' to justify the collective punishment of all Palestinian people when the group to blame is Hamas. I don't blame you, you must have had a lot of Israeli anti-Arab propaganda to hold the views you hold. Just realise that if you were in the shoes of a Palestinian who had lost his entire family to Israel's war crimes. You'd do the exact same.

The Hamas terrorists do on a small scale what Israel does on a humongous scale. I.E. Civilian casualties. Why justify Israel's perpetration of these but not Hamas's? Using one or two reports that are probably written by Zionist academics does nothing to prove your point.


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FYI hamas dont need any reason to let loose rockets, nor permission from any 'governmental' politician, i guess they do so everytime they run out of space storing rockets in palestinian schools

Typical hyperbole and emotive nonsense.

Try and debate someone without accusing them of being paid, if you want to get any responses.

Try and debate someone without accusing them of being paid,

Hamas' desire to pursue Israel beyond peace and utterly destroy it (whilst ludicrous) also constitutes extremism, imo. However, extremism such as this is essentially "to be expected" given the context in Palestine. The years of persecution, the lack of political agency, the desperate poverty - Israel has driven Palestine to this; created the monster. A dog that you kick and starve becomes vicious.

The greatest shame is that Hamas provokes extremism and intolerance in Israel, worsening the political spectrum there.

True. And the hatred Palestinians feel toward Israel might continue to fuel Hamas for some time. However, Israel's continuing disproportionate aggression is only providing fodder for extremism in Palestine. How many Palestinians would cease to support the party if they felt there was a reasonable alternative?



"Slight skepticism" and "reserving judgement" are inappropriate at this stage. Nor is the blockade of food/aid/etc the responsibility of rogue anti-Arab foot soldiers (though rogue Israeli groups certainly contribute to Palestinian mistreatment, particularly with regard to continuing occupations) - the blockade and it's devastating effects are deliberate and endorsed by the Israeli government.

It has been clear for many years that the blockade is against more than weapons and is in fact depriving Palestinians of the basic necessities to live. This has been thoroughly investigated and established on multiple occasions by reputed international organisations and charities who have unilaterally condemned the blockade as illegal. We don't need to wait for the US to give an opinion, which not suprisingly they have with-held for purely political reasons.

Israel has pubicly and openly blocked aid flotillas on several occasions. Israeli officials have even commented that the blockade has been deliberately used to "put pressure" on Hamas. That itself is as much a terrorist action as firing rockets into an area.

Yes, I can agree with this.

Yet to powerlessly tolerate continued aggression and restriction from Israel at enormous human cost seems to be what is expected of Palestine, unless they are to be labelled "aggressors" or "equally responsible".

Also Israel are at fault as Hamas just wants life to be fair for its people,

So the Palestinians wouldn't care about Israel existing? Israel wouldn't care about being attacked?

Look with your eyes and head, not with your pre-conceived notions.

Wrong.

From the Hamas Charter
Intro
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Article 13
"Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas].
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

Also, from article 7
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

If religion was not around, the 'holy land' would be no more significant to the world than Dorset.