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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

No. The sample size is key to any statistical measure and is always relevant. In this case the sample size is very large compared to the number of outliers being introduced by war.

So tell me again, why were you comparing the 1500 deaths to the current population of Gaza and trying to work out the life expectancy?

Reply 4761

tsr1269

3

Original post by miavdbt

Any number I put on it will be guesswork. Logically, it will be less. How low the number will be is impossible to tell.

Shouldn't it be Zero?

So you admit that Hamas is firing from busy cities for no other reason than because they want more of their civilians to die in order to garner International Sympathy? Finally, we're getting somewhere.

Except it is not HAMAS who are killing the civilians. If Israel does not want the death toll to mount up, then it needs to take action (i.e: withdrawal of forces and an end to aerial bombardment) but they are just too stubborn for that.

The ball is in Israel's court...

Reply 4762

UniOfLife

12

Original post by tsr1269

So tell me again, why were you comparing the 1500 deaths to the current population of Gaza and trying to work out the life expectancy?

I wasn't working out the life expectancy. I was showing the impact of a small number of extreme changes to a large sample size.

You know, if you're right it should be fairly easy to demonstrate it. Go right ahead, I'd be very interested to see the maths.

And of course all of this is entirely beside the point which, if you can recall that far back, was that the conditions in "open air prison Gaza" are evidently not as terrible as people might like to think if the life expectancy there is higher than in Glasgow.

Original post by UniOfLife

I wasn't working out the life expectancy. I was showing the impact of a small number of extreme changes to a large sample size.

You've droned on and on about life expectancy. In fact, that was your OP.

You know, if you're right it should be fairly easy to demonstrate it. Go right ahead, I'd be very interested to see the maths.

I just did but then you decided to dispute it bringing in "living people" for some reason.

And of course all of this is entirely beside the point which, if you can recall that far back, was that the conditions in "open air prison Gaza" are evidently not as terrible as people might like to think if the life expectancy there is higher than in Glasgow.

I sense quite a bit of backtracking here. An analogy could be drawn with Netanyahu's comments over the weekend about the apparent capture of the soldier and the concluding remarks that HAMAS didn't in fact, capture the soldier...

Reply 4765

tsr1269

3

Original post by miavdbt

Nope. Not necessarily.

Are you trying to tell us that Israel's precision weapons are not entirely precise and that is why they have this high Palestinian death toll?

Okay, listen, stop engaging in this whataboutery that you accuse everyone else of and explain why it is that Hamas is not protecting its civilians but doing the opposite and doing everything it can to put them in danger. You have been asked this numerous times but have failed to address it, instead trying to point fingers at Israel, when we're not discussing Israel but Hamas's tactics to 'protect' their civilians.

Israel's airstrikes kill civilians because civilians happen to be standing next to the rockets that Hamas fires. This will not be the case if the rockets are fired from the middle of an empty field.

Israel complains about HAMAS using human shields, despite there being no definite or conclusive evidence.

Ultimately, it is down to the Israeli's. If they do not want to explain a high death toll to the international community, then they should simply hold fire.

Reply 4766

tsr1269

3

Mortar shell hits Eshkol but no warning sirens sounded.

Has the ID simply failed?

Reply 4767

UniOfLife

12

Original post by tsr1269

You've droned on and on about life expectancy. In fact, that was your OP.

I just did but then you decided to dispute it bringing in "living people" for some reason.

I sense quite a bit of backtracking here. An analogy could be drawn with Netanyahu's comments over the weekend about the apparent capture of the soldier and the concluding remarks that HAMAS didn't in fact, capture the soldier...

*sigh*

Apparently this concept is very hard for you to comprehend. The life expectancy of 1.5 million people will not dramatically change with the early death of 1,500 of them.

I sense quite a bit of avoiding the point here. You are of course free to ignore any inconvenient fact you like. But the reality is that life expectancy in Gaza does not fit with a place of starving people. Infant mortality rates there do not fit with a place without basic medical supplies. If you think of Gaza in that way then these facts ought to give you cause to pause and reconsider. If you choose to ignore them or try and wave them away as obviously wrong (maybe a conspiracy!) then that is your prerogative. I prefer to debate with people who at least live in the same reality as I do and are prepared to accept facts when presented to them from reliable sources.

Reply 4768

miavdbt

6

[QUOTE="tsr1269;49026146"]Are you trying to tell us that Israel's precision weapons are not entirely precise and that is why they have this high Palestinian death toll?

That's not what I was getting at. People ignore warnings, people end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. All conflicts have some civilian deaths, so there will always be some civilian deaths, however they won't be as high as they are now.

Israel complains about HAMAS using human shields, despite there being no definite or conclusive evidence.

Ultimately, it is down to the Israeli's. If they do not want to explain a high death toll to the international community, then they should simply hold fire.

Will you stop ignoring my questions? You've been ignoring this question for days now, trying to bring in any possible bull**** argument to stray from it.

Why is Hamas not firing from empty fields but from civilian areas when it knows that logically this will lower the civilian count?

Or are you saying that Hamas doesn't care about its civilians and they're at the mercy of how much importance Israel places on the opinion of the International community? I'd like to here your take on this.

Reply 4769

MASTER265

Original post by Suetonius

Where did I once state that I support Hamas?

I'm not on any "side". That's childish playground nonsense. Clearly, you've picked yours. "Fight against terrorism" is a meaningless statement, given that you can't fight against a tactic.

"They chose to harbour them in schools, UN hospitals and very densely populated areas". Can you support this assertion with a credible peer-reviewed academic source?

An overwhelming amount of evidence illuminates who the aggressor is in this conflict.

I have said on countless occasions and I will say it again on this thread, highlight the morally wrong actions of Hamas and I will happily admit to the faults of Israel in this conflict. Too often we have criticised Israel and on some instances rightly so but in no way should Hamas walk away clean as they too have blood on their hands. This whole thread has been one sided.

Regarding the "Fight against terrorism" statement please do not be naive. It is a universally used statement to illustrate the global struggle against Islamic extremists. It has been used on the media, NGO and governmental stage. Pointing out stupid technicalities within my literacy is masking the real debate here.

I assume you side with Israel because very few pro Palestinian supporters on here acknowledge the fact that most of the world and even Hamas themselves(how ironic) identify it as a terrorist organisation.

Did you know not once have I asked for a source of information from you guys as I am old enough and able enough to search it for myself. However if you need me to find it for you and waste a portion of this day so be it but at least specify a legitimate source in your books, are we talking governmental data, NGO data, UN data, EU data...give me an idea because something tells me you are likely to disregard anything I post in an instance if it does not fit the criteria.

Reply 4770

Pinzgauer

Notice how the terrorist-supporting BBC has not shown any Hamas terrorists or them in action fighting. Yet we get it all the time from Syria.

Almost as if the BBC doesn't want to show the 'palestiniasn' fighting. Only Israel bombing.

Reprehensible propaganda network.

Reply 4771

tsr1269

3

Original post by UniOfLife

*sigh*

Apparently this concept is very hard for you to comprehend. The life expectancy of 1.5 million people will not dramatically change with the early death of 1,500 of them.

I sense quite a bit of avoiding the point here. You are of course free to ignore any inconvenient fact you like. But the reality is that life expectancy in Gaza does not fit with a place of starving people. Infant mortality rates there do not fit with a place without basic medical supplies. If you think of Gaza in that way then these facts ought to give you cause to pause and reconsider. If you choose to ignore them or try and wave them away as obviously wrong (maybe a conspiracy!) then that is your prerogative. I prefer to debate with people who at least live in the same reality as I do and are prepared to accept facts when presented to them from reliable sources.

Thank you for that huge block of information. I apologise for not reading past the first sentence but I already knew what you were going to say.

I only have one simple statement:

Life expectancy is measured according to the ages of people who have died, not those who are living.

Reply 4772

tsr1269

3

Original post by miavdbt

That's not what I was getting at. People ignore warnings, people end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. All conflicts have some civilian deaths, so there will always be some civilian deaths, however they won't be as high as they are now.

Whataboutery does you no favours at all.

Will you stop ignoring my questions? You've been ignoring this question for days now, trying to bring in any possible bull**** argument to stray from it.

Why is Hamas not firing from empty fields but from civilian areas when it knows that logically this will lower the civilian count?

Or are you saying that Hamas doesn't care about its civilians and they're at the mercy of how much importance Israel places on the opinion of the International community? I'd like to here your take on this.

You seem most concerned about the Palestinian death toll as does Israel with their constant need to imply media bias and justification for the high death toll in Gazze.

I suggest to you, and to all those who wish to go down this route that if Israel does not want to explain the high death toll, then they simply hold fire. The solution is not to blame the other side for an action which you think they are engaging in which as not definitively, nor conclusively been proved.

Reply 4773

miavdbt

6

Original post by tsr1269

.

Why is Hamas not firing from empty fields when it has the chance to but prefers to fire from busy cities?

If you are incapable of responding to the above question, please refrain from pointing fingers elsewhere in order to deflect from the original point. What is that, red herring? Whataboutery? Maybe even both?

Reply 4774

MASTER265

Original post by Jammy Duel

When was the last time Israel actually took peace seriously (or Hamas for that matter)? Or, more importantly, when did they both take peace seriously enough to try to make peace?
Is Israel not getting this wonderful distraction for the international community via Gaza so people forget that they are illegally settling the west bank? And does a nation not have the right to defend its interests? Israel is attacking Gaza for the rocket fire, Gaza is now attacking Israel via the rocket fire for, among other things, the blockading of Gaza.

I feel like we are somewhat getting somewhere, you finally acknowledged Hamas are not orientated towards peace and to some extent Israel have not helped matters either.

I will continue supporting Israel in this debate until people admit to the faults of Hamas because for sure Israel are not completely innocent but Hamas should equally share the blame.

The blockade is an important issue which should be discussed more. So Israel has controlled the movement of goods, people and recourses yes. They to some degree control the economic and demographic climate of the Gaza Strip. This sounds bad until we look more into the other side of the argument. Gaza houses a terrorist network which has widely used suicide bombers for example so can you blame Israel for being weary of who it let's pass into their land? Do we not take similar precautions over our borders? Secondly a large proportion of building materials and recourses have gone to the construction of these illegal tunnels into Israel. Even Palestinian officials outside of the organisation say Hamas have starved Gaza of new and updated infrastructure because as we now know they focused the stocks on the tunnels ect. Can we blame Israel for being weary of what it lets into Gaza considering the intentions of Hamas? Thirdly the influx of natural recourses and arms has been used by Hamas for the likes of rockets and military arms. The UN has stated that their is Iranian and Syrian armed goods being sent to Gaza. My overall point is can we hate Israel for taking precautions whether they are extreme or not to protect to their people? It's a tricky situation to be in and whatever route they take either their people or the people of Gaza will suffer.

Reply 4775

tsr1269

3

Original post by miavdbt

Why is Hamas not firing from empty fields when it has the chance to but prefers to fire from busy cities?

If you are incapable of responding to the above question, please refrain from pointing fingers elsewhere in order to deflect from the original point. What is that, red herring? Whataboutery? Maybe even both?

I have absolutely no idea. Maybe you should email them or tweet to them with your suggestion.

It'de be fascinating to receive a response from an "actual real live terrorist", wouldn't it?

Reply 4776

miavdbt

6

Original post by tsr1269

I have absolutely no idea. Maybe you should email them or tweet to them with your suggestion.

It'de be fascinating to receive a response from an "actual real live terrorist", wouldn't it?

Of course you don't. Because it makes no logical sense at all for them to do this. Unless they want to do everything possible to put their civilians at risk. But you won't concede to that because that would mean accepting the fact that Hamas isn't a group of freedom fighters conquering the evil oppressor as the extreme leftist and Hamas would have us believe.

Was that sarcastic comment at the end an attempt at saving face? Tsk, bitterness does not become you.

Reply 4777

MASTER265

An important question is what do you think would happen if Israel pulled back from everything they are doing?

Do you really think that will prevent anymore fighting especially in the future?

This is a region where fighting will exist until either side wins so what do you anti-Israeli people think pulling back will achieve?

Reply 4778

HCubed

13

Original post by miavdbt

Ooh, okay, well Hamas might not fire from empty fields, but what about the evil Israel that hits civilians anyway? Isn't that the whataboutery that you like to accuse us of?

Right. So you won't answer the question. Israel is not complaining and whining about civilian losses. Gaza is complaining and whining about civilian losses.

You refuse to answer the question because you can't. Because you know what I said is perfectly logical. Tell me why Hamas won't fire its useless rockets from fields instead of busy cities! You can't?

I'll tell you why. Because if Hamas fires and stores its rockets far away from civilians, Israel will be unlikely to hit any. As a result, the Hamas media war will fail. And that's all they have to rely on, International sympathy. Agree or disagree and why?

Hamas puts its rockets in civilian areas because if they were out in the open they would be destroyed in short order by the IDF, it's as simple as that. Without the rockets Hamas doesn't exist, even though they are little more than an annoyance to Israel, they are about the only bargaining chip the Gazans have. If Israel offered an incentive to disarm, maybe the insanity could be stopped... but they won't, they make it impossible for the Gazans to accept their conditions.

So Hamas's choice is to unilaterally disarm to a neighbour that wants to destroy them and is holding an entire population hostage, or to fight on and accept horrendous consequences. It's a hopeless situation for the Gazans and Israel's treatment of them is inhumane and utterly shameful. The hard right's hold on Israel has made the world a much more dangerous place.

Reply 4779

broscience123

3

Israeli Official Calls For Concentration Camps In Gaza

http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

I will not be surprised if the next step of the Zionists is to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, as they have done in the past to other Palestinian territories. It's only a matter of time before these blood-thirsty animals go one step too far (although to be fair, they have already gone pretty far, so far). How will anyone be able to stop them when they are so hungry for Land and Arab Blood. They even bite the hand that feeds them (The USA who provides £3bn a year in aid) via means such as spying and threats.

The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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