The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Original post by UniOfLife

I have presented some evidence showing that there is in fact significant open space, away from populated areas, which Hamas could use to stockpile their weapons and fire them from. If you have counter evidence, of any form from any reliable source, then you should use it.

Why do you ask about which map I care about?

So that there are no quibbles later on.

Reply 5342

Original post by striver17

Ermm....can you elaborate on this? If you believe that there is no genocide occurring in Gaza you must be truly misinformed.

Not at all. As I have posted elsewhere, and I can hunt it down for you if you would like, judges have ruled in the past that the definition of "genocide" requires the killing of a significant portion of the population. 1,900 dead is a large number but it is certainly not a significant proportion of a population of 1.8 million.

Reply 5343

Original post by tsr1269

So that there are no quibbles later on.

I have placed in front of you some evidence that it took perhaps 5-10 minutes to find and is pretty clear.

You have asked for a day or more to find counter evidence. When you have it, present it and I will respond to it.

Reply 5344

tsr1269

Original post by UniOfLife

I have placed in front of you some evidence that it took perhaps 5-10 minutes to find and is pretty clear.

You have asked for a day or more to find counter evidence. When you have it, present it and I will respond to it.

And I have asked if you have a preference for me to use your maps or the latest available maps and you have failed to answer.

As I have said, this little discussion requires contribution from both of us, not just one...

Reply 5345

Original post by UniOfLife

Not at all. As I have posted elsewhere, and I can hunt it down for you if you would like, judges have ruled in the past that the definition of "genocide" requires the killing of a significant portion of the population. 1,900 dead is a large number but it is certainly not a significant proportion of a population of 1.8 million.

The UN, under Article Two, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":
-Killing members of the group
-Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical damage in whole or In part
-Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.

Reply 5346

Original post by tsr1269

And I have asked if you have a preference for me to use your maps or the latest available maps and you have failed to answer.

As I have said, this little discussion requires contribution from both of us, not just one...

I don't care which map you use so long as it is reliable. There are also figures I presented which are more useful than looking at a map and guessing. As I have said before quite clearly - present whatever evidence you want.

Original post by striver17

The UN, under Article Two, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":
-Killing members of the group
-Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical damage in whole or In part
-Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.

I refer you to this post which proves that the condition "killing members of the group" requires killing a substantial proportion of the group. I quote from the article linked to in that post:

It is necessary to prove only that the perpetrator of genocide intended to destroy the group “in part.” The ICTY and the ICTR have interpreted this requirement by adding the adjective substantial, which indicates a quantitative dimension, or significant, which suggests a qualitative dimension. The ICTR has said “that ‘in part’ requires the intention to destroy a considerable number of individuals” (Prosecutor v. Kayishema et al., case no. ICTR*95*1*T, Judgment and Sentence, May 21, 1999, paragraph 97). An ICTY and ICTR trial chamber said that genocide must involve the intent to destroy a “substantial” part, although not necessarily a “very important part” (Prosecutor v. Jelisic ́, case no. IT*95*10*T, Judgment, October 19, 1999; Prosecutor v. Bagilishema, case no. ICTR*95*1A*T, Judgment, June 7, 2001, paragraphs 56–59). In another judgment, the ICTY referred to a “reasonably substantial” number relative to the group as a whole (Prosecutor v. Jelisic ́, case no. IT*95*10*T, Judgment, October 19, 1999; Prosecutor v. Bagilishema, case no. ICTR*95*1A*T, Judgment, June 7, 2001, paragraphs 56–59).

As I said, the death toll in Gaza is certainly not a substantial part of the Palestinian population of Gaza. Ergo, Israel is certainly not committing genocide.

Reply 5347

Original post by striver17

Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.

UniOfLife has already demonstrated precisely why it requires "substantial" killings to qualify as genocide.

Though I take it you were extremely active in calling for the end of the Darfur Genocide? And Assad's genocide? After all, if 1900 Palestinians dead is a genocide in you book, I wonder what the Syrian Civil War constitutes?

Or do you only get angry when it's Jews killing Muslims, and look the other way when it's Muslims killing Muslims or Muslims killing Yezidi/Christians etc

Reply 5348

Original post by striver17

The UN, under Article Two, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":
-Killing members of the group
-Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical damage in whole or In part
-Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.

By the way, where is the evidence that Israel committed any of those acts "with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part"?

Reply 5349

Martyn*

13

Original post by BabySinclair

I wonder why they have a problem with Israel.

Jews and Arabs are old enemies.

Reply 5350

Original post by UniOfLife

I don't care which map you use so long as it is reliable. There are also figures I presented which are more useful than looking at a map and guessing. As I have said before quite clearly - present whatever evidence you want.

I refer you to this post which proves that the condition "killing members of the group" requires killing a substantial proportion of the group. I quote from the article linked to in that post:

As I said, the death toll in Gaza is certainly not a substantial part of the Palestinian population of Gaza. Ergo, Israel is certainly not committing genocide.

'A substantial proportion' is a subjective statement and one that I do not deem worthy or of enough substance to take away from the atrocities the Israel is committing.

According to an Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, Israel has been conducting a state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and far more intensively in Gaza. He goes on to state that 'a genocide is taking place is Gaza...an average of eight Palestinians die daily in Israeli attacks on the strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day.'

Whether you consider what is happening against the Palestinians genocide or not, it does not take away from lack of humanity shown by the Zionists.

Reply 5351

I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land, the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world, whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)

Reply 5352

Original post by MostUncivilised

By the way, where is the evidence that Israel committed any of those acts "with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part"?

If you bear with me, I will collate my sources.

Reply 5353

Original post by striver17

If you bear with me, I will collate my sources.

You're welcome to try. You won't find anything because it has never been Israeli state policy to murder the entire Palestinian group. And quotes from right-wing nutcases demonstrate nothing, what you need to show are state documents, cabinet decisions, something similar to the Wannsee Conference

To be honest, it's pretty obscene to call this genocide because it suggests you have such tunnel vision on this issue that you've never bothered to study actual genocides (you know, like in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust). Interestingly, all of those involved masses of deaths, not a ludicrously small by comparison 1900

Reply 5354

Original post by striver17

'A substantial proportion' is a subjective statement and one that I do not deem worthy or of enough substance to take away from the atrocities the Israel is committing.

According to an Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, Israel has been conducting a state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and far more intensively in Gaza. He goes on to state that 'a genocide is taking place is Gaza...an average of eight Palestinians die daily in Israeli attacks on the strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day.'

Whether you consider what is happening against the Palestinians genocide or not, it does not take away from lack of humanity shown by the Zionists.

Whilst there may be cases where "substantial" is subjective, Gaza is not such a case. Nobody in their right mind would call 0.1% a substantial part of anything.

Reply 5355

username931319

Original post by MostUncivilised

I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land, the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world, whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)

I strongly disagree with your statement, on both anthropological, historical and linguistic reasons.

Firstly "Israel/Palestine" isn't analogous to the native American situation or the aborigines. Secondly, every single Jew, bar an incredibly small minority are European, they have no ties related to the Levant at all. Hebrews, people of Judah weren't originally Jews either - if we're technical Levantine Samaritans are the only endemic semitic group, of which has stayed in the interior of what we know as Israel.

Secondly Jews aren't an ethnicity, it's an ethno-religious group, and for whatever vindication, or vilification you propose; the culturally Arabized Levantine population of which became the endemic people of "Israel" are the natives now, not the Jews.

This doesn't mean I want the Jews out now (too late for that, I'd have been against a made-up state of Jewish Germans, Poles in the first place) but to ignore the reality that the modern Jews aren't endemic, is just naive.

Reply 5356

Original post by MostUncivilised

UniOfLife has already demonstrated precisely why it requires "substantial" killings to qualify as genocide.

Though I take it you were extremely active in calling for the end of the Darfur Genocide? And Assad's genocide? After all, if 1900 Palestinians dead is a genocide in you book, I wonder what the Syrian Civil War constitutes?

Or do you only get angry when it's Jews killing Muslims, and look the other way when it's Muslims killing Muslims or Muslims killing Yezidi/Christians etc

Wow, I am surprised at how much people assume on these forums! Do not think that when I or any other person condemns one genocide, that we overlook another. The fact that the media has been failing to portray a reality is what has sparked up this debate in the Middle East yet again, and therefore, I have taken the opportunity to do my bit, not that it's any of your concern.

Assad's regime is killing more people than Israel hands-down. I strongly condemn Assad and am well aware that what is happening there is far worse than in Gaza. Assad's regime in my opinion has no ounce of humanity in them.

If you did your research properly, you would find that Muslims do not approve and also condemn the killing of Yezidis and Christians. A civilian is a civilian, no matter what their religion is. And the killing of civilians is not from Islam.

Reply 5357

Original post by AntisthenesDogger

Secondly, every single Jew, bar an incredibly small minority are European

Actually, no. Almost 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (i.e. from the Middle East, Iraq, Yemen,etc).

The fact you didn't know that, the fact you believed the vast majority of Jews in Israel were European, demonstrates you are so xenophobic and so biased against Israel that you would make up any fact, or accept any lie, without bothering to see if it's true.

You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5358

Snagprophet

17

Original post by striver17

The UN, under Article Two, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":
-Killing members of the group
-Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical damage in whole or In part
-Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.

I've not seen any evidence that Israel is committing genocide.

That's like saying if a white man is assaulted, then that's genocide against white people.

Reply 5359