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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Reply 5500

young_guns

Original post by tsr1269

Israel is a settler state (SS). I don't see any reason why we can't call a spade a spade...

By the way, DFA is Dirty Fascist Animals short for Hamas

Dirty, because they live in a lot of squalor. There are a lot of hygiene related diseases that have emerged in Gaza since Hamas took over, and Hamas seem to have forgotten even basic civilised practices that prevent those kind of germs spreading

Fascist is quite obvious, given their violent tactics against their own people, the intimidation.

Animals because they have such primitive emotions. It's like when you see an Israeli missile hit a Hamas terrorist's house and take him out, the Hamas animals go all Planet of the Apes and charge through the streets carrying the corpse, screeching like banshees, flecks of spittle flying out of their mouths. Very tribal, but fascinating anthropoligically

DFA. Easier than typing Hamas.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5501

tsr1269

Original post by young_guns

Call a spade a spade. Israel = Israel.

SS is a more accurate term. It allows a person to recognise it for what it is and how it came into being.

So why don't you just call it Israel? I suppose typing DFA is far easier than typing Hamas, and it is accurate

You seem upset about this for some reason.

Original post by young_guns

A terrorist sympathiser like you has access to Shin Bet's internal documents? Show me

I do apologise. The SS have not provided any evidence.

You seem to be not quite up to date on your information. They didn't think Hamas high command ordered it, but there is little doubt it was carried out by the Qawasmeh Clan, which dominates Hamas in Hebron

Ah yes, the Qawasmeh clan. We all know them, the little troublemakers...

Why do dirty fascist animals do anything? You would think they would not want to cause Gaza to be bombed into the stone age, and yet they did it

You didn't answer the question. There is no reason HAMAS would kill the teens. HAMAS members would lay down their life to ensure that the teens are spirited away.

Original post by young_guns

DFA

Thank you.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5502

tsr1269

Original post by Meenglishnogood

i dont think they killed them immediatly. the question why is impossible to answer when talking about islamists - they think with primitive minds, not logic. why did hams execute 11 gazans in the middle of the street?

Because they believed that the people were SS spies/collaborators and in a time of war, the usual practice is to "clean house"...

Reply 5503

young_guns

Original post by tsr1269

SS is a more accurate term. It allows a person to recognise it for what it is and how it came into being.

You're just showing us you don't know history. The settlements only started in 1967. Israel was founded in 1948 :fyi:

You seem upset about this for some reason.

People only say that when they're the ones who are upset.

And it's funny you saying that, given you literally have no life and spend all day every day on this thread. You're a real Johnny No Mates you are

You didn't answer the question. There is no reason HAMAS

You mean DFA?

Reply 5504

Meenglishnogood

Original post by tsr1269

Because they believed that the people were SS spies/collaborators and in a time of war, the usual practice is to "clean house"...

so you agree with the policy for hamas to shoot palestinians based on a beleif

Reply 5505

Jammy Duel

Original post by young_guns

So now you're saying they're "loosely affiliated" but before they were not even members?

I think you're having difficulty following, I'm not saying it was them, I'm just passing on the official position since Meenglishnogood seems to only want to accept the original story.

Reply 5506

tsr1269

Original post by young_guns

You're just showing us you don't know history. The settlements only started in 1967. Israel was founded in 1948 :fyi:

And your history only starts after 1948...

Ouch...

You mean DFA?

You mean "Department of Foreign Affairs"? How is that relevant?

Reply 5507

tsr1269

Original post by Meenglishnogood

so you agree with the policy for hamas to shoot palestinians based on a beleif

If they feel like shooting them in the head, stomach or ass, who am I to stop them?

You seem intent on making references to Islamists both HAMAS and IS feature heavily, but I wonder what will happen if you go and tell them our opinions in their face.

Would you live to tell the tale?

Reply 5508

tsr1269

Funeral pictures for the Qassam Commanders killed yesterday.

Reply 5509

young_guns

Original post by tsr1269

And your history only starts after 1948...

I am genuinely glad to have taught you a more accurate history of the SS. I'm guessing you learn something every day, huh?

Ouch...

I know, huh? :lol:

I would definitely be embarassed if I'd spent the last 12 months making 20 posts a day on this thread.

You mean Hamas?

Yes, the DFA. Now you're getting it.

You're slow, but you're not that slow, I'm pleased to say.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5510

young_guns

Original post by tsr1269

You seem intent on making references to Islamists both HAMAS and IS feature heavily, but I wonder what will happen if you go and tell them our opinions in their face.

Ooh, internet tough guy :wink:

I'm sure he's quaking in his boots.

I'm happy to say I think the DFA are cowards, and child rapists, and I'm glad Israel wiped out 900 of them in July. And I'm happy to have a public meeting with one of them in London and say it to his face, if you want to set that up

Reply 5511

tsr1269

Original post by young_guns

I am genuinely glad to have taught you a more accurate history of the SS. I'm guessing you learn something every day, huh?

Oh no! The SS was created via mass illegal immigration and terrorism. Doesn't change those facts...

I know, huh? :lol:

I would definitely be embarassed if I'd spent the last 12 months making 20 posts a day on this thread.

Awkward when the other person doesn't realise that when he said that "People only say that when they are...", he went on to say that he didn't have any mates.

Really awkward. Now, it's just embarrassing for you...

Yes, the DFA. Now you're getting it.

You're slow, but you're not that slow, I'm pleased to say.

Oh, the Department of Foreign Affairs. How kind of you to keep referring to them but I have absolutely no idea what relevance they have in this thread topic but hey, whatever floats your boat and all that shizzle...

Reply 5512

tsr1269

Original post by young_guns

Ooh, internet tough guy :wink:

Ah, a keyboard warrior. How....uninteresting....

Reply 5513

Chindits

I think when one finds themselves supporting the side that slaughters its own people in the street in front of kids watching - you have to take a long hard look at yourself.

We know Muslims won't change, but even the most wide-eyed leftist must be thinking - "how on earth did it come to this. When I end up being on the side that guns down 18 of their own in a street"

Leftists really are a morally bankrupt entity.

Reply 5514

young_guns

Original post by tsr1269

Oh no! The SS was created via mass illegal immigration and terrorism. Doesn't change those facts...

The SS was created by a declaration of independence following a 2/3rds vote in the United Nations General Assembly :fyi:

I love what you just did there. It's like you did a kind of clumsy side-step that meant instead of dodging the rather embarassing facts about your lack of life and constant attendance here, you just tripped over your shoe laces.

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I guess that's why you never have any material of your own and you just copy whatever I say and throw it back at me

Oh, the DFA

Now you're getting it.

Ah, a keyboard warrior. How....uninteresting....

I call you internet tough guy, you come back with keyboard warrior. Your imitation of me is truly quite flattering.

I suppose being a native English speaker and having been educated in English lit, I probably have a more substantial base of prose and quotes to fall back on, hence your tendency to pick things up from me.

Anyway, I'm off to bed and then off for the weekend. I look forward to coming back on Sunday and seeing the 20 or 30 posts you will make between now and then :wink:

Good night

Reply 5515

Meenglishnogood

Original post by tsr1269

why would they be interested in "our opinions?" :confused:

And on that note, what do you think would happen if one of these islamists walked up face to face with an IDF solider or a US Navy seal? without their human shield to hide behind i doubt theyd put up much of a fight. ultmatley they are cowardly islamsits hiding behind human shields, im happy to say that. it they put away their rockets and guns too and face a discussion im sure many would tell them that. but in reality they wont, so im sure then instead they will face israelis air-to-ground missiles instead.

Original post by tsr1269

Funeral pictures for the Qassam Commanders killed yesterday.

i assume any palestinian that didnt put their head to the floor like this, would have been shoot in the face by hamas for being an 'informer' like before.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5516

viddy9

We should be skeptical of the claim by this particular official - it's doubted by experts and conflicts with the statements of other Hamas sources. As Hugh Lovatt of the European Council on Foreign Relations has stated: "Given the timing I would be very suspicious about his claim. I still don't believe Hamas as an organisation and its upper echelons sanctioned the kidnappings... A second, more remote possibility, is that al-Arouri is telling the truth and that he has operated on his own initiative – a development with very worrying repercussions as it would imply a serious power struggle and splintering within Hamas."

There are a lot of statements being made by various people that it's hard to know who to believe. One Israeli police official, for example, was reported as saying that it was a "lone cell" who were responsible for the kidnappings.

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter - it doesn't justify the blanket arrest of hundreds of people, nor the extra-judicial assassinations of people, nor the collective punishment inflicted upon the Palestinian people by Israel.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5517

Huskaris

Original post by young_guns

After all the breathless claims that they had nothing to do with it, Hamas has now admitted that they kidnapped the boys. Good timing though, because Israel just took out three senior terrorists in the last 24 hours Israeli air strike kills three Hamas commanders in Gaza

I'd like to ask you a genuine question from a position of ignorance because you seem very well informed which isn't really linked to this thread but a question that's been in my head a while. I hope you answer it genuinely as like I said I'm ignorant on this and want to know more.

Is there any conceivable reason that the Israelis would like to create a culture of fear amongst their people, using Hamas as some sort of boogeyman? Much like all of the surrounding Arab nations did when Israel was formed, Mussolini invading Abbysinia etc. Effectively a diversion tactic. I don't know enough about day to day life in Israel, I just feel that the Israeli people must be pumped with so much fear in order to allow such bombardment of civilian areas to go on.

Alternatively do you believe it stems from a completely unwavering belief that Israel should exist at absolutely any cost, almost like some ultra right wing Zionism?

Any other explanation would be much accepted, like I said I actually completely detest both sides in this war. Hamas are condemning their people to undergo more bombardment because of these rockets, which in turn kills children and parents, and ultimately condemns the future generations to believe in the Hamas cause.

Also, one more much more cynical question.

Do you think it is conceivable that this is part of an Israeli game plan to provoke Palestine, effectively ending any possibility of a two state solution, and eventually out breeding/displacing all the Palestinian people through settlement building.

I hope you take these with the sincerity they are meant, I'm not making digs I'd genuinely love to hear your opinion :-)

Reply 5518

young_guns

Original post by Huskaris

Is there any conceivable reason that the Israelis would like to create a culture of fear amongst their people, using Hamas as some sort of boogeyman?

I don't think so, it seems very clear that what they actually want is "quiet for quiet" (i.e. they won't attack Hamas if Hamas isn't attacking Israel). Now a lot of pro-Palestinian people would argue that the reason they want quiet is so they can continue to steal land in the West Bank without interference, there is a lot can be argued there but it seems pretty clear that almost the entire Israeli population, about 95% including almost all of the Israeli left that generally wants to pull out of the West Bank, believes in this operation.

And that makes sense, I think it's hard to understand sitting here in the comfort of the UK to get just how frightening and disruptive it is to constantly have air raid sirens going off, constantly having to go into underground shelters and seeing missiles being shot out of the sky by air defence systems. To the extent that few Israelis are killed, it's because they've spent so much money on air raid shelters and on Iron Dome, but there's no question that the rockets are not only very disruptive to Israeli life, but in Southern communities (where you have more like 15 seconds warning once the siren goes) actually deeply traumatising (a study by the American Psychological Association showed something like 85% of children in Sderot display symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder)

And it seems pretty clear that Israel doesn't want Hamas to remain given they are constantly trying to pressure Gaza into going back into the control of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. I feel that is an unhelpful and conspiratorial view to say the Israeli government wants Hamas to remain in control to frighten their own people, and it's not borne out by the facts

By the way, Israelis aren't a bunch of weak-kneed people who scare easily, almost all of them have served in the army, and speak some Arabic, and have a sense of the conflict more than just what they see on their TV, because they would have served maybe in Lebanon in the 1980s, and their kids are serving now. It is a highly militarised but democratic society, partly because everyone serves. Whatever one says about the Israelis, I don't think anyone has seriously suggested they are lacking in physical courage

I just feel that the Israeli people must be pumped with so much fear in order to allow such bombardment of civilian areas to go on.

They are bombing the civilian areas because that's where the targets are. If Hamas fired their rockets from the many wide open fields and rural areas in Gaza, then no civilians would be dying. But Hamas fires their rockets from civilian areas, their command bases and tunnel entrances are in civilian areas, so that's where the IDF attacks.

You cannot allow an enemy to have a privileged sanctuary where you will not attack. It was the same in Vietnam, the United States expanded their bombing to Cambodia and Laos because you couldn't simply allow the Viet Cong to go to a place of total safety just by running across the border. Similar with the Taliban and their privileged sanctuary in Pakistan (hence the drone programme). Failing to attack them in their sanctuary destroys deterrence (which is an important part of Israeli military doctrine)

Hamas is trying to create its privileged sanctuary amongst civilians, and it's win-win for them. If Israel doesn't attack, then they can fire their rockets with no come back. If Israel does attack, civilians die and they can parade corpses in front of the cameras and wave the bloody shirt and say "Look what monsters the Israelis are"

Furthermore, it's a bit of a misunderstanding of the situation to think that the Israelis are just dropping bombs on civilians. Every time they pull the trigger, they are responding to particular intelligence (and they have very good intelligence on the ground, many informants). And the death toll, while over 2000, about 900 of those are militants which isn't a bad hit rate in urban warfare

Furthermore, to judge this based on Western values is to misunderstand where Israel is. The Middle East is a cruel place, and in the culture there you cannot turn the other cheek, you can only make concessions from a position of strength, not weakness (I would encourage you to read the book From Beirut to Jerusalem, by Tom Friedman), it will explain a lot about the Mid East mindset.

And I'll tell you an old Arab story that illustrates it perfectly (and the Israelis understand this, it's why they're so good at playing the Mid East politics game, better than the Arabs in fact)

An old Arab was told if he ate turkey, he would become virile again. So he bought himself a turkey and fed it the best grain and watched it grow fat. Every day he said to himself "One of these days I am going to eat this turkey and be virile again. I am going to be a stud" He started eyeing the good looking young women around.

One morning he found his turkey has been stolen. He gathered his sons around him and said in a somber voice; "Sons, we are in grave danger. My turkey has been stolen. Go, find my turkey" The boys laughed at him and said, "So what is the big deal, Old man? What do you need the turkey for anyway?" The old Arab replied, "Never mind, what I need the turkey for. The important thing is that our turkey has been stolen and it must be found. Go, find my turkey."

The boys walked away and paid no more attention to the old man or look for his turkey. A few weeks later, the old man's camel was stolen. This time the sons went to the old man and said, "Father, your camel has been stolen? What shall we do?". "Forget about the camel. Find my turkey" the old man told his sons. The sons did not bother about the turkey but looked for the camel for a few days and soon they forgot about the camel too.

Another few weeks later the old man's horse was stolen. The sons once again went to their father and said, "Father, your horse has been stolen, what shall we do?". "Forget about the horse. Find my turkey." the old man replied. The sons again did not bother about the turkey but looked for the horse in the neighborhood.

Again, after a few days the sons forgot about the horse too. Finally a few weeks later old man's daughter was raped. The sons were furious, went to father and said, "Father, our sister has been raped. We shall kill the bastard" The old man looked mournfully at his sons and said, "No use showing your temper now. It is all because of the turkey. Once they found out that they can get away with the turkey, everything was lost".

And that's how things work in that area of the world. That's why blood feuds go on for generations, but you cannot show weakness, you can't turn the other cheek and let something slide. So you think the Israelis are going to turn the other cheek when their declared enemies start bombarding them with thousands of rockets?

Alternatively do you believe it stems from a completely unwavering belief that Israel should exist at absolutely any cost, almost like some ultra right wing Zionism?

I don't think it's ultra right wing Zionism to believe Israel should exist if not at any cost then at very high cost, and certainly at the cost of a couple of thousand dead Palestinians.

I doubt you'd be willing to see this country go under very easily, and I have no doubt that you (just as people in this country did in World War 2) would accept some very harsh tactics against the enemy, including tactics that resulted in the death of many enemy civilians (fire bombing of Tokyo? Ten times as many people were burned to death in one night, 100,000 civilians, as Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the last 50 years, which is about 10,000... i.e. less civilians than the West killed in Afghanistan in the last 13 years)

Do you think it is conceivable that this is part of an Israeli game plan to provoke Palestine, effectively ending any possibility of a two state solution, and eventually out breeding/displacing all the Palestinian people through settlement building.

It's not to provoke the Palestinians, if anything Likud wants quiet from the South while they proceed with the settlement programme. They want Hamas to pipe down.

Likud as a party has no intention of implementing a two-state solution, but it would be wrong to look at Likud as being Israel, as much as it would be wrong to say all Brits agreed with Thatcher (interestingly, what do you think Thatcher would do in such a situation? If Britain was being bombarded with thousands of rockets and the terrorists were hiding in civilian areas? Do you think she would say, it's okay, let's just take the beating?)

It's also worth recognising that Netanyahu has kept the crazies on the right in check. Many in his government, like Naftali Bennett, were saying, "Let's go in, let's totally wipe them out and topple Hamas, whatever it takes."

Netanyahu doesn't want to do that because they fear what would replace Hamas if they toppled them (i.e. an ISIS style jihadist group). Ultimately they want Hamas to be removed in favour of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.

I would also emphasise that it is always swings and roundabouts in Israeli politics. While Netanyahu might be in power now, the left will get back into power at some point. Or Netanyahu might set up his own party. Ariel Sharon, the former leader of Likud in the 2000s left that party to set up hs own party because likud wouldn't back him on pulling out of Gaza and forcibly removing all the Jewish settlements from Gaza.

At some point in the next ten yeas, the left or a centrist coalition will get back into power and offer a deal along the lines that Olmert offered the Palestinians in 2008 (i.e. the best deal they were ever offered, which was Palestinian sovereignty over the Jerusalem Holy Sites, an underground highway linking Gaza and West Bank, in West Bank Palestinians would receive 94% of the land, Israel would remove settlers into all but the largest settlement blocks in 6% of the land and compensate Palestine with an equivalent amount of land from Israel within the 1967 borders, also there would be no Israeli military presence in the Jordan Valley, and 10,000 Palestinians would be permitted to exercise the right of return to Israel. That was the best deal they were ever offered, Condi Rice quote "Couldn't believe her eyes" and they walked away from it because they thought they could get a better deal under the next president. It's questionable whether they'll get something that good ever again)