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The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (X)

If God exists, He is subject to the laws of logic. If that entails God must act in time (which certainly seems the favoured view amongst Christian philosophers), then God must necessarily act within time post-creation.

God by his essence, and God with his creation are two different things. By his essence, God is not limited, nor does he move , nor does he deliberate, nor change states.

However, by his creation, he has created these concepts, and God is able to manipulate whatever within the creation without himself being subject to these things, if you follow me?

This is essentially the b-theory of time (eternalism). Unfortunately, the 2nd premise of the kalam argument - that the universe began to exist, only works under the a-theory (presentism).

I am not arguing for the B theory. The year 14billion if it will exist, currently does not exist. However, God is not within the universe and not subject to experiencing the movement of time.

So i am not arguing for the B theory of time, but am arguing that God is not limited or confined to experiencing time like we are.

He knows whatever has existed, and whatever will exist, and knows exactly what will happen, because he is not himself, waiting for them to happen or limited to being within this confined universe where we must wait sequential years.

He is outside of this.

To argue that God is also experiencing time is to argue that God exists within time, whereby he had to wait , by his essence 13.7 B years to get to the point we are today.

Again, philosophers would disagree with these assertions. The idea that a timeless being can causally interact with a temporal world is just as counter-intuitive as an omnipresent God "moving" from X to Y.

They are both very distinct.

To argue God himself moves between X and Y argues that he has a limited form and confine. If God created limitations, how can he himself be limited? If he moves, he is subject to time by his essence, and he is also subject to need - the need to move from X to Y, and he is free of all need.

While God creating whatever he wills in a contingent temporal universe does not at all limit God by his essence.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2301

username1044970

18

Original post by Tawheed

...

I don't want to get banned for debating on this thread. We'll continue on PM/VM.

Reply 2302

Tawheed

20

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

I don't want to get banned for debating on this thread. We'll continue on PM/VM.

Okay, sure :smile:

Best we don't debate here, let's carry it on in PM.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2303

Positron.

1

Original post by Ibn Fulaan

This is needless complication of the Simple Aqeedah of ahl al sunnah.

What tawheed said makes sense though. but yh, If we are to accept it, we'd have to reject this hadith so idk

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "When it is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, descends every night to the heaven of the world and says, 'Is there anyone who invokes Me (demand anything from Me), that I may respond to his invocation; Is there anyone who asks Me for something that I may give (it to) him; Is there anyone who asks My forgiveness that I may forgive him?' "

Sahih al-Bukhari 6321

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2304

Tawheed

20

Original post by Positron.

What tawheed said makes sense though. but yh, If we are to accept it, we'd have to reject this hadith so idk

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "When it is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, descends every night to the heaven of the world and says, 'Is there anyone who invokes Me (demand anything from Me), that I may respond to his invocation; Is there anyone who asks Me for something that I may give (it to) him; Is there anyone who asks My forgiveness that I may forgive him?' "

Sahih al-Bukhari 6321

Dear brother,

I ask you to research all the major groups within Islam, Sunni and Shia, and after using open-minded research, come to your own conclusion.

Some may argue these things are 'too' complicated for us to understand, but really, they aren't.

If Allah existed before the seven heavens, then he could therefore not be 'in' the seven heavens as 'where' did he exist before? He existed without any physical confines nor physical limitations. 'Where' is a concept created by Allah swt, and he can not limit himself in his creation.

For someone to claim a pardox, and then tell you believe in this paradox due to a hadith which isn't in the Quran and has a possibility of perhaps not being true, and not using your own mind is hard for any rational being to accept.

It's a circular argument:

1. Believe in us.
2. As our scholars narrate this hadith
3. It's true because our scholars narrate it.

As i do not want to turn this into a debate, i'd love to answer any questions over PM!

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2305

HAnwar

17

Original post by beautifulxxx

Salam Alaikum WaRahmatullah.

Bringing this topic again because I'm stubborn like that.
Is it okay for a non mahram to communicate with a female under the justification of dawah? And by communicate I don't mean a one hour talk, rather an everyday whatsapp or TSR convo. On that note, is it even okay to have a male or female friend? I'm pretty sure it's not; yet I'm tired of being called 'extreme' or too 'serious' and 'negative' because I say it is. Please share your thoughts and daleel, I will be very grateful.

Wasalam.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Salaam.

These are just my opinions, but I think it should be allowed if it's for dawah proposes.
If it's on WhatsApp it shouldn't be one to one, but rather a group conversation just to make sure.
TSR conversations should be ok if it's on the ISOC out in the open, and not in private like on inbox, unless it's really necessary.

It's not ok to have a male friend regardless of what people tell you.

Don't worry about what people say. There are some who try and make exceptions and excuses for everything, even when it's pretty clearly laid out in front of them. And they make you doubt yourself.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 2306

username883747

13

Original post by Positron.

What tawheed said makes sense though. but yh, If we are to accept it, we'd have to reject this hadith so idk

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "When it is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, descends every night to the heaven of the world and says, 'Is there anyone who invokes Me (demand anything from Me), that I may respond to his invocation; Is there anyone who asks Me for something that I may give (it to) him; Is there anyone who asks My forgiveness that I may forgive him?' "

Sahih al-Bukhari 6321

No we don't. We could accept the fact that their are certain things Allah has 'programmed' us not to understand.

rejecting ahadeeth of such and such with doing full research into the statments of scholars and their differing interpretations and other hadeeth and ayaat and the like is not done.

Reply 2307

Plantagenet Crown

20

Original post by ImNotMe

Are you bored, dear Plantagenet? You know that there are certain things that do not befit God's majesty, such as human/animal acts. One of them being 'moving'.

Yes I did know that, but I didn't think it applied to moving. After all, he can still see and hear like us, can't he? Anyway don't want to get warned for debating here.

Reply 2308

Plantagenet Crown

20

Original post by Tawheed

Peace be with you*

Not at all.

You see, to 'move' you need to be confined within space, and there needs to be a duration of 'time' whereby you go from place X to place Y. Therefore the 'act' of 'moving' assumes you are a confined limited being, who is limited in spacial, and subject to time.

Therefore God does not need to 'move' as he isn't in time or space, and has power over all things, and exists outside of time and created it, so is not limited and subject to what he created.

When we say God can do 'anything' he wills, we mean anything other than limiting himself.

OK, thanks for that.

Reply 2309

beautifulxxx

15

Original post by HSafirah

Waalaikumussalam warahmatullahi wabarakatu sister

Well... I would love to help you, but I don't know the answer to that.

I watched this video just now, what a coincidence. Maybe it can help you :smile:

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAQFwPiNX9U

JazakAllahu khayran as always sis. Helpful answers xx

Original post by HAnwar

Salaam.

These are just my opinions, but I think it should be allowed if it's for dawah proposes.
If it's on WhatsApp it shouldn't be one to one, but rather a group conversation just to make sure.
TSR conversations should be ok if it's on the ISOC out in the open, and not in private like on inbox, unless it's really necessary.

It's not ok to have a male friend regardless of what people tell you.

Don't worry about what people say. There are some who try and make exceptions and excuses for everything, even when it's pretty clearly laid out in front of them. And they make you doubt yourself.

Posted from TSR Mobile

I agree, but special measures should be taken too.
Yeah exactly. I mean. Allah says "lower the gaze". What do they do? Stare at the ground and and chit chat.
JazakAllahu khayran too xx

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 2310

HAnwar

17

Original post by beautifulxxx

JazakAllahu khayran as always sis. Helpful answers xx

I agree, but special measures should be taken too.
Yeah exactly. I mean. Allah says "lower the gaze". What do they do? Stare at the ground and and chit chat.
JazakAllahu khayran too xx

Posted from TSR Mobile

Yeah I know.
Wa iyyaki x

Posted from TSR Mobile

Original post by Enoxial

Wow new members on this thread....

Old (really really old) members on this thread! I see your 2 years and raise you 11...

Original post by Khodu

Salaam bro, it's been a really long time. All is well in my end alhamdulillah, what about you?? I did do a Maths degree lol, doing a Masters now part time. Did you end up becoming an Actuary?

All well alh as well. In Cordoba Spain at the moment on holiday from the cold snows!
Oh nice mA. What are you hoping to go into? Further academia or had enough?
Lol no not an actuary! Working for a large retailer HQ at the moment applying my general wisdom to drive future growth and profits! Just what I dreamt of doing as a child... :-(

Reply 2313

teenhorrorstory

21

Hello all!
Can any of you help me with my RE homework? From an Islamic perspective, i need arguments for why punishment of crimes is a necessity in this life, and how it can be argued that it isn't since sinners will be punished in the hereafter

Thanks in advance

Reply 2314

Mary562

2

Walaykumasalaam all

---

Nabi SAW said, "Shall I tell you the expression that is most loved by Allah? It is Subhan-Allahi wa bihamdihi." (Muslim)

Reply 2315

Zamestaneh

21

Original post by teenhorrorstory

Hello all!
Can any of you help me with my RE homework? From an Islamic perspective, i need arguments for why punishment of crimes is a necessity in this life, and how it can be argued that it isn't since sinners will be punished in the hereafter

Thanks in advance

If crimes go unpunished, then there will be social disorder. Social disorder causes people to either turn away from God or prevents them from enjoining worship of Him. If crimes go punished and there is peace, then people have time to think about God, worship, enjoin goodness; if everything is a battle for survival (which is a condition that lawlessness might create) then people may be driven to do immoral things in order to survive, so they wouldn't be able to gain favour with God by breaching His rules.
By establishing laws (and carrying out punishment), a parallel is drawn between life and the hereafter - those who stick to the rules, will be the most likely to live good lives, and those who do bad will be punished for what they do. This therefore is a practical reminder to the people to be mindful of God.