Any Tories care to defend this?

Original post by scrotgrot

This is what they all say when confronted with the real lived experience of being disabled under the current system. "Oh, you're a genuine claimant, sure you should get the money, it's all those other scroungers I'm against."

And there is quite enough for everyone - why must it only be the poorest who have to cut their cloth?

I personally am heartened to hear the scare stories about people claiming the full rate for bad backs etc. It reassures me that those who really need support must also be getting it.

Actually, I already acknowledged she was disabled. Her implication was that she had an income. When she said I PAY FOR what she meant was benefits pay for (aka the taxpayer pays for).

Where does the money come from? We have had an influx of migrants to pay for, security threats to pay for, EU aid to pay for. Britain pays taxes, we need to make cuts where we can. If you cut it from migrants you have cries of racism, cut it from disabled cries of discrimination, raise the taxes of the rich they move industry, cut it from the poor and again we have discrimination. It's impossible.

My mum is disabled. She cannot hear. Yet she has worked and doesn't claim benefits. It is a case by case situation. To lump them all in one group is impossible. You also seem to forget about benefits cheats and self-induced obesity.

Reply 122

Original post by scrotgrot

I already provided per capita stats which you obv chose to ignore.

Pensions: £8,000
ESA: £1,500

Stop lying

Also it doesn't matter whether they have worked already or not. ESA enables people to do what work they can in the future. Finance works both ways, that's literally the point of debt, money, capitalism.

Even if not thinking about work ESA puts demand in the economy. The people contribute by buying what they need at their local shops. Otherwise the money that now goes in tax to fund ESA would just be squirrelled away in some rich person's bank account - that is to say, invested in some high growth foreign country by the bank.

Benefits boost the consumer economy. They also have the happy side effect of not letting people die just because they're poor, although I accept with Tories this is considered a bad thing.

Yes but how many on ESA actually end up working? Many stay on it all their lives without holding down a job. It's alright having it, but it isn't working.

This statement is completely untrue. If the middle and upper class have more wealth then they spend more. Most lower class try to save money, the middle and upper invest it and then spend some, and they spend a far greater amount. You seem to think that every rich person is privileged and gets mollycoddled by the government. Yet they contribute the most to the economy.

This is a lie! Have you ever studied economics?! It doesn't work like that. And actually many homeless people refuse help because begging gets them money,and in fact most beggars aren't actually beggars, according to official stats.

Reply 123

Original post by sw651

You also seem to forget about benefits cheats and self-induced obesity.

This is rubbish. A lot of mental health medications cause weight gain. I should know since I've been taking Risperidone since I was a young adult. It causes tissue to swell and produces the term 'Psychotic Belly'. This is why the majority of mental health patients are overweight. The medication also causes increased appetite.

Your whole comment on self-induced obesity is a ignorant out in the open for all to see.

Original post by sw651

Yes but how many on ESA actually end up working? Many stay on it all their lives without holding down a job. It's alright having it, but it isn't working.

A lot of people on ESA work. They do as much as they are capable of doing. There is a program called Permitted Work. Here is the form for you to see I am not telling lies.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=23634

Permitted Work allows a person on ESA to work between 1 to 15 hours. Many disabled people use this program to get into the work place and work a couple of hours so they can contribute to society.

Also others find that they are not hindered by their disability and then move onto getting 16 hour work contracts which allow them to get Tax Credits. Here is the proof.

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/tax-credits-extra-money-due-disability

To be honest your entire opinion that people on ESA don't shift a finger is completely unfounded.

...................

Anyway I already stated. I actually claim ESA myself. I am in the process of going back on Permitted Work very soon to work with my friends. Its like a Tax Credit system for disabled people inside the ESA system.

Your suggestion is being rebuked right in front of you.

And you are really ill informed on current Government policy. Iain Duncan Smith actually ecourages Permitted Work.

Look at this link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404200/Duncan-Smith-bid-2million-sick-benefits-work-Work-Pensions-secretary-call-shake-fundamentally-flawed-system.html

.................................................

What is really damaging is forcing disabled people to work though and the whole Tory view of getting the disabled into work by cutting their benefits.

The permitted work system and tax credit system (16 hours) existed long before the Tories. During Labour years people including myself where working and we didn't have all the fear triggering us and sending our anxiety levels though the roof.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 124

Reason and Logic

4

Original post by sw651

It's proportional! There are more old people than there are on regular benefits. And you know why we give old people pensions? Because a majority have worked their arses off. You are wrong about welfare spending. In entirety it is almost 698 billion. It makes up 10% maximum. Also ESA is not the only benefits, overall we spend over 40 billion in benefits. Stop drawing up stats which support your argument and ignoring the truth.

As has been pointed out you were provided with per capita (proportional) figures but chose to ignore them.

You made assertions as if they were fact about the amount of money paid out in ESA, you were provided facts that utterly disprove your assertions and your answer is to say "Stop drawing up stats which support your argument and ignoring the truth."

Do you have any clue how stupid that statement is?

You are basically saying, stop showing me evidence that I am wrong and ill informed, it doesn't sit well with my twisted views.

Even when confronted with evidence that about as black and whitely as possible shows you are completely wrong you still delude yourself and make more rambling points and wildly generalise with no basis in evidence. You do not want to know the truth, you want to stick to a twisted argument that is hurtful to the most vulnerable in society.

Try and realise, the tories are only in power because there are enough puppets in the country who will believe catchy soundbites that pit the lower rungs on the class ladder against one another. All the time this just deflects attention away from their own shenanigans of scratching each others backs on the summit and laughing down at the rest of us.

I have read two news stories this week where the tories are more than happy to push the boundries of the law to bring cuts on the less well off. (Trying to ban anyone entering the UK from claiming benefits for 4 years & trying to reverse a supreme court decision on the 'Bedroom Tax'). Sandwiched inbetween these stories was the tory defense of the Google tax bill. The tories would basically prefer one rich company to get megabucks rather than see thousands of people struggle less.

Reply 125

Original post by sw651

Yes but how many on ESA actually end up working? Many stay on it all their lives without holding down a job. It's alright having it, but it isn't working.

Looks like you ran off.

Any Tories dare to take his place?

Reply 126

Original post by illegaltobepoor

Looks like you ran off.

Any Tories dare to take his place?

Actually, some of us have jobs and lives outside student forums.

Reply 127

Original post by sw651

Actually, some of us have jobs and lives outside student forums.

Ah a job. I will have one of those again. I then will be a living example to rebuke your stupid claims.

Your online now so why don't you reply? The ball is in your court.

Fact is lots of people on ESA work. Its called Permitted Work. 1 to 15 hours.

Reply 128

Original post by illegaltobepoor

Ah a job. I will have one of those again. I then will be a living example to rebuke your stupid claims.

Your online now so why don't you reply? The ball is in your court.

Fact is lots of people on ESA work. Its called Permitted Work. 1 to 15 hours.

1-15 hours? According to financial companies that isn't even seen as part time. So to call that work is ridiculous

And do you consider yourself representative of all jobseekers?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 129

Original post by sw651

1-15 hours? According to financial companies that isn't even seen as part time. So to call that work is ridiculous

And do you consider yourself representative of all jobseekers?

Work is defined as doing some form of labor. Doesn't matter if its 1 hour or 80 hours.

The top financial companies are not experts in disability related work. In fact the majority of top corporations shun disabled people.

I speak as a disabled person who has lots of disabled friends and a good majority of them have jobs. They might only work 2-3 days a week for relatively short hours but a job is a job.

You are just trying to redefine the meaning of what the word work means because you know your in the wrong and I've put you in your place.

I personally think a disabled person working 15 hours a week is the equivalent of a able bodied person working 70 hours a week.

End of the day a person can only work as long until their body gives in. Since disabled people have limited physical or mental stamina it is perfectly reasonable that their work hours are lower.

In my own case I can only work up to 10/20 hours around people due to my psychosis but thats why I am moving into bio-tech so I can spend most of my time in a lab or work outside so I don't have to be around people. I will then be able to go the full haul hopefully.

But for the moment ........... my body will only let me work 10/20 hours a week.

And that is work.

Go and argue with the oxford dictionary.

Quote inc!

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/work?q=WORK

According to this dictionary work is defined as the following:

Work as a means of earning income; employment:

Reply 130

Original post by illegaltobepoor

Work is defined as doing some form of labor. Doesn't matter if its 1 hour or 80 hours.

The top financial companies are not experts in disability related work. In fact the majority of top corporations shun disabled people.

I speak as a disabled person who has lots of disabled friends and a good majority of them have jobs. They might only work 2-3 days a week for relatively short hours but a job is a job.

You are just trying to redefine the meaning of what the word work means because you know your in the wrong and I've put you in your place.

I personally think a disabled person working 15 hours a week is the equivalent of a able bodied person working 70 hours a week.

End of the day a person can only work as long until their body gives in. Since disabled people have limited physical or mental stamina it is perfectly reasonable that their work hours are lower.

In my own case I can only work up to 10/20 hours around people due to my psychosis but thats why I am moving into bio-tech so I can spend most of my time in a lab or work outside so I don't have to be around people. I will then be able to go the full haul hopefully.

But for the moment ........... my body will only let me work 10/20 hours a week.

And that is work.

Go and argue with the oxford dictionary.

Quote inc!

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/work?q=WORK

According to this dictionary work is defined as the following:

Work as a means of earning income; employment:

And therein lies the flaw in your argument.

I have no problem with disability benefit.

I have a problem with those that aren't disabled and try to play the system.

Reply 131

username1148663

21

Original post by sw651

And therein lies the flaw in your argument.

I have no problem with disability benefit.

I have a problem with those that aren't disabled and try to play the system.

I'm not on anyone's side here but it's a bit like the Michael McIntyres famous joke.

You see someone parking in a disability spot and you think what's wrong with him?

When he gets out the car you want him to fall flat on his face just because there's no space anywhere else and he just gets out and walks off.

Obviously not told the way he said it exactly but the sentiment is the same.

Disability isn't judged by you but by professionals in their field.

Some people don't think depression or anxiety that affects people's social or occupational functioning are disabilities for example

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 132

Original post by sw651

And therein lies the flaw in your argument.

I have no problem with disability benefit.

I have a problem with those that aren't disabled and try to play the system.

Well let me be fair to you but you need to have a stiff upper lip and realize I am not trying to intimidate you but instead trying to convince you of the reality I see on a regular basis.

Right first thing you need to do is abandon any presumptions you have about disabled people faking their illness because the thoughts of able bodied people often target genuine disabled people rather than the fakers. I mean that because I personally get it all the time every where I go.

Here is a list of things to look for when trying to spot a faker.

1. Disabled people talk about their disabilities constantly and are extremely educated about the difficulties they face. Fakers on the other hand know very little and instead play on peoples emotions though groans of pain or pea-cocking physical abnormalities.

2. Disabled people tend to be pre-occupied, unorganized and very moody. This can be spotted when you walk into their homes. If there is a lot of mess or disruption a disabled person is obviously struggling with something. Fakers on the other hand tend to have immaculate clean houses and they tend to be in a calm state.

3. Disabled people don't have many able bodied friends outside of college/work. They tend to have much more internet friends. Fakers constantly talk about all the new people they've met and tend to have a lot to talk about relating to social situations.

4. Disabled people tend to be either skinny or fat but not the average weight. This is because meals are often ready to eat packed full of carbs & sugars which causes weight gain or there are certain foods which cannot be digested which results in not enough calories getting in the body. Fakers on the other end tend have a decent or slightly overweight body mass index.

5. Disabled people won't make a big deal about getting out of their wheel chair or walking a few steps without their crutch. Fakers tend to look around until everything is clear and then abandon their aids and if they are caught red-handed they will be shocked.

6. Disabled people have whole life times of medical records relating to their disability and can list the medications they take without problems. Fakers on the other hand struggle and tend to tell you stories of GP visits. If they say I went to see a specialist you ask them which hospital was that at? If they can't tell you then there is a good chance they are blagging it.

7. Disabled people don't like the right-wing and are part of some anti-austerity organisation, disability charity or community group. Fakers dont take part in the whole disability rights struggle and politically they tend to enforce some right-wing scapegoat ideals. Blaming immigrants etc.

8. Disabled people love the internet and are addicted to it. They are especially addicted to MMORPGs like World of Warcraft because it gives them the opportunity to be as equal as everyone else around them. Fakers on the other hand don't get much pleasure from big online social platforms.

9. Older disabled people tend to be single and in rare circumstances they will find themselves having a partner. Fakers on the other hand seem to be dating all the time and going to many social events.

10. Disabled people don't like leaving their home even if its to take their pet dog for a walk. Going out of the home creates a lot of tension and anxiety. Fakers don't have this problem and feel more positive and outgoing.

Reply 133

Original post by illegaltobepoor

Well let me be fair to you but you need to have a stiff upper lip and realize I am not trying to intimidate you but instead trying to convince you of the reality I see on a regular basis.

Right first thing you need to do is abandon any presumptions you have about disabled people faking their illness because the thoughts of able bodied people often target genuine disabled people rather than the fakers. I mean that because I personally get it all the time every where I go.

Here is a list of things to look for when trying to spot a faker.

1. Disabled people talk about their disabilities constantly and are extremely educated about the difficulties they face. Fakers on the other hand know very little and instead play on peoples emotions though groans of pain or pea-cocking physical abnormalities.

2. Disabled people tend to be pre-occupied, unorganized and very moody. This can be spotted when you walk into their homes. If there is a lot of mess or disruption a disabled person is obviously struggling with something. Fakers on the other hand tend to have immaculate clean houses and they tend to be in a calm state.

3. Disabled people don't have many able bodied friends outside of college/work. They tend to have much more internet friends. Fakers constantly talk about all the new people they've met and tend to have a lot to talk about relating to social situations.

4. Disabled people tend to be either skinny or fat but not the average weight. This is because meals are often ready to eat packed full of carbs & sugars which causes weight gain or there are certain foods which cannot be digested which results in not enough calories getting in the body. Fakers on the other end tend have a decent or slightly overweight body mass index.

5. Disabled people won't make a big deal about getting out of their wheel chair or walking a few steps without their crutch. Fakers tend to look around until everything is clear and then abandon their aids and if they are caught red-handed they will be shocked.

6. Disabled people have whole life times of medical records relating to their disability and can list the medications they take without problems. Fakers on the other hand struggle and tend to tell you stories of GP visits. If they say I went to see a specialist you ask them which hospital was that at? If they can't tell you then there is a good chance they are blagging it.

7. Disabled people don't like the right-wing and are part of some anti-austerity organisation, disability charity or community group. Fakers dont take part in the whole disability rights struggle and politically they tend to enforce some right-wing scapegoat ideals. Blaming immigrants etc.

8. Disabled people love the internet and are addicted to it. They are especially addicted to MMORPGs like World of Warcraft because it gives them the opportunity to be as equal as everyone else around them. Fakers on the other hand don't get much pleasure from big online social platforms.

9. Older disabled people tend to be single and in rare circumstances they will find themselves having a partner. Fakers on the other hand seem to be dating all the time and going to many social events.

10. Disabled people don't like leaving their home even if its to take their pet dog for a walk. Going out of the home creates a lot of tension and anxiety. Fakers don't have this problem and feel more positive and outgoing.

I recognise that. And I appreciate that.

I find this to be arrogant and somewhat rude as you know very little about me or what I face on a daily basis. My mum is deaf, she cannot hear. She still fostered kids from all backgrounds, also disabled. I am adopted. My birth mum faked disability, she tried to cut off my arm to get extra benefits. I have no time for people who take away from those that need it. My mum gets **** all from the government. Yet those who are able to hear and get work get money? what kind of ****ed up system is that?

Reply 134

username457532

17

Original post by illegaltobepoor

Well let me be fair to you but you need to have a stiff upper lip and realize I am not trying to intimidate you but instead trying to convince you of the reality I see on a regular basis.

Right first thing you need to do is abandon any presumptions you have about disabled people faking their illness because the thoughts of able bodied people often target genuine disabled people rather than the fakers. I mean that because I personally get it all the time every where I go.

Here is a list of things to look for when trying to spot a faker.

1. Disabled people talk about their disabilities constantly and are extremely educated about the difficulties they face. Fakers on the other hand know very little and instead play on peoples emotions though groans of pain or pea-cocking physical abnormalities.

2. Disabled people tend to be pre-occupied, unorganized and very moody. This can be spotted when you walk into their homes. If there is a lot of mess or disruption a disabled person is obviously struggling with something. Fakers on the other hand tend to have immaculate clean houses and they tend to be in a calm state.

3. Disabled people don't have many able bodied friends outside of college/work. They tend to have much more internet friends. Fakers constantly talk about all the new people they've met and tend to have a lot to talk about relating to social situations.

4. Disabled people tend to be either skinny or fat but not the average weight. This is because meals are often ready to eat packed full of carbs & sugars which causes weight gain or there are certain foods which cannot be digested which results in not enough calories getting in the body. Fakers on the other end tend have a decent or slightly overweight body mass index.

5. Disabled people won't make a big deal about getting out of their wheel chair or walking a few steps without their crutch. Fakers tend to look around until everything is clear and then abandon their aids and if they are caught red-handed they will be shocked.

6. Disabled people have whole life times of medical records relating to their disability and can list the medications they take without problems. Fakers on the other hand struggle and tend to tell you stories of GP visits. If they say I went to see a specialist you ask them which hospital was that at? If they can't tell you then there is a good chance they are blagging it.

7. Disabled people don't like the right-wing and are part of some anti-austerity organisation, disability charity or community group. Fakers dont take part in the whole disability rights struggle and politically they tend to enforce some right-wing scapegoat ideals. Blaming immigrants etc.

8. Disabled people love the internet and are addicted to it. They are especially addicted to MMORPGs like World of Warcraft because it gives them the opportunity to be as equal as everyone else around them. Fakers on the other hand don't get much pleasure from big online social platforms.

9. Older disabled people tend to be single and in rare circumstances they will find themselves having a partner. Fakers on the other hand seem to be dating all the time and going to many social events.

10. Disabled people don't like leaving their home even if its to take their pet dog for a walk. Going out of the home creates a lot of tension and anxiety. Fakers don't have this problem and feel more positive and outgoing.

I think you need to stop saying you are the ultimate expertise in disability. I am disabled. I have disabled friends. We do not fit all your ideas of what disability is. I don't have internet friends, all my friends are people I've met through hobbies etc. Most are abled. Online games are so not my thing and I don't give a **** about the idea of 'the opportunity to be as equal as everyone else around them'. I am not ashamed of my disability. I'd say I'm kind of average weight, maybe a little overweight. And I have an eating disorder - I don't fit into most people's image of what someone with an ED, looks or acts like. I love going outside when I have the energy and it makes me feel so much better. I've actually started walking a dog so that I get outside more (and get some great doggy time). My disabled friends aren't moody, some are happily in relationships and don't really talk about their disabilities unless it's necessarily. Disabled people are not one entity.

Reply 135

abruiseonthesky

11

Original post by Squirrel777

The life is dreadful, I won't dispute that, but the support is sufficient. We have one of the best packages for the disabled and elderly in the world. You people need to look at America, India, China, France, Greece, Russia and many others before you bash the UK policy. The left have nothing better to do than complain about UK services when situations in the rest of the word are more dire

Because of course you can't be critical about your own country's policies when there are worse places in the world. That's like saying 'you shouldn't be depressed, other people have it worse'. It's stupid.

Reply 136