Theresa May, dangerous Marxist

They still are a stupid idea, May is just **** at being a conservative.

Reply 4

Trapz99

She's gone to far to the left on this. The Conservative party isn't supposed to stand for policies that interfere with the free market, like rent caps and utilities caps.

Reply 5

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Trapz99

She's gone to far to the left on this. The Conservative party isn't supposed to stand for policies that interfere with the free market, like rent caps and utilities caps.

She's never seemed quite sure if she should move into Labour territory or pander to her Right. That's why the last election was so pants from a Tory viewpoint - one day they were talking about the hard done by, the following day they were bringing back fox hunting and cutting social care.

This makes them look totally cynical as we all know the Tories don't give a stuff if the energy monopolies they set up make bumper profits at our expense. The kicker is that (as with the railways - another one to get onto now for Mrs May?) the majority of these firms are state operators in other countries.

Reply 6

Original post by Jammy Duel

They still are a stupid idea, May is just **** at being a conservative.

If any amount of mild social democratic reforms can not improve the lot of the majority then Marx was surely right? Marx wasn't what we now call Social Democrats. His view of capitalism was that it would always deteriorate and exploit those at the bottom more and more and in order to improve their lot in life we need an entirely different mode of production. The real "Marxists" are not the likes of Corbyn who think we can improve capitalism for the majority via state intervention, that is anti-Marx. The real Marxists are the likes of Philip Hammond, those on the right can only defend capitalism whilst it is deteriorating and not providing all the wonderful things it is supposed to be providing. They have no solutions, their only selling point is that anything else would be much worse. Capitalism is proving Marx right at the moment and the majority of right wing critics of Corbynism are more in line with Marx than the new social democrats like Corbyn who think capitalism can actually be made to work for the majority. The right can only defend the deterioration of the lot of the majority, as that is what capitalism is.

This would not be true if the right were offering any solutions other than carry on as normal. Or if they actually advocated a system other than capitalism. But they don't.

Original post by Trapz99

She's gone to far to the left on this. The Conservative party isn't supposed to stand for policies that interfere with the free market, like rent caps and utilities caps.

Why?

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 7

Drewski

19

I miss the pragmatic centre :sad:

Reply 8

AlliedCrimes

2

You should all be more worried about their internet censorship. Locking up people for up to 15 years for visiting sites that promote terrorism and far-right propaganda LOL

It's not that you have to agree with the views of those sites, but you may want to visit them out of interest. Soon as you know it the police are at your door.

Reply 9

Trapz99

Original post by Fullofsurprises

She's never seemed quite sure if she should move into Labour territory or pander to her Right. That's why the last election was so pants from a Tory viewpoint - one day they were talking about the hard done by, the following day they were bringing back fox hunting and cutting social care.

This makes them look totally cynical as we all know the Tories don't give a stuff if the energy monopolies they set up make bumper profits at our expense. The kicker is that (as with the railways - another one to get onto now for Mrs May?) the majority of these firms are state operators in other countries.

In my view her constant indecision as to whether she should appeal to the right of her party or the left is what lost her support from both. Labour and the lib dems already have the centre- and far-left occupied. There's no votes that the tories can possibly get from those voters- the name 'conservative' itself is almost toxic to that side of the electorate. The only way the Conservatives can win the next election is by appealing to the right. That's the traditional, middle/upper-middle class voters and those who voted for Brexit. Appealing to the left isn't going to get her the votes that she needs because Corbyn dominates among those voters. I don't understand what she's trying to do- it's so fake the way she talks about 'inequality' and 'unfairness'

Reply 10

Original post by Drewski

I miss the pragmatic centre :sad:

Just give it a decade or two and you can be content over the new centre ground and pretend it is a cast iron law of physics again.

There is also nothing pragmatic and admirable about inducing disabled people to suicide.

Reply 11

Trapz99

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Why?

Because that's not what the Conservatives are supposed to do. The conservatives are supposed to support the free market. Monetarism or the classical liberalism espoused by Hayek is what the Tories are supposed to be

Reply 12

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Trapz99

Because that's not what the Conservatives are supposed to do. The conservatives are supposed to support the free market. Monetarism or the classical liberalism espoused by Hayek is what the Tories are supposed to be

There's no 'supposed' - Tories are the pragmatic party who shift around to wherever the majority of the public are and espouse whatever suits them to maintain power. In recent years that's meant slavish neoliberal spouting, but in past decades in meant Big State Capitalism or even Social Democratic Capitalism. They've not really ever had a 'philosophy' as such, other than traditional Liberal Free Tradism, but that's not always been their position by any means. In the sense that they cut their cloth to fit the voters, Theresa May is a classic Tory. She just isn't a classic modern Tory.

Reply 13

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

They have no solutions, their only selling point is that anything else would be much worse. Capitalism is proving Marx right at the moment and the majority of right wing critics of Corbynism are more in line with Marx than the new social democrats like Corbyn who think capitalism can actually be made to work for the majority.

Agree that Marxist analysis has never looked more relevant. Corbyn I think would fancy himself a Marxist (didn't he say so recently?) but it's true that neither he nor McDonnell act like classic Marxists, although they may be in this for the long haul - it's always all about positioning, especially for the Trotsky branch. I assume the inner circle are getting ready for the next big crisis, which can't be long in coming now. Usually in the past century or so this was circumvented by major wars, but in the age of nukes, these are harder to organise.

May out, Mogg in

Original post by Trapz99

Because that's not what the Conservatives are supposed to do. The conservatives are supposed to support the free market. Monetarism or the classical liberalism espoused by Hayek is what the Tories are supposed to be

Says who? The Conservatives got on board with Kenysian economics during the Golden age of Capitalism. The Conservative party doesn't really have one single ideology.

Reply 16

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Agree that Marxist analysis has never looked more relevant. Corbyn I think would fancy himself a Marxist (didn't he say so recently?) but it's true that neither he nor McDonnell act like classic Marxists, although they may be in this for the long haul - it's always all about positioning, especially for the Trotsky branch. I assume the inner circle are getting ready for the next big crisis, which can't be long in coming now. Usually in the past century or so this was circumvented by major wars, but in the age of nukes, these are harder to organise.

McDonnell actually is doing things that could be described as Marxist with regards to his work with worker co-ops and his "within the state and against the state" stance.

https://www.facebook.com/james.doran1/videos/vb.1333366645/10210810467921113/?type=2&theater

This is actually closer to my conceptualisation of what socialist politics should look like. Regardless of any dodgy stuff around the IRA etc McDonnel is actually one of the better left MPs in Labour imo. It's the more interesting part of Corbynism yet hardly anyone, left or right, talks about it. All this discourse over nationalisation vs privatisation spectacularly misses the point. I'm sure the left should be able to take advantage of this and make the right's attack lines redundant in that they are attacking something that doesn't exist and doesn't fit with people's direct experience of socialism. But when does the left take advantage of anything? :colonhash:

.
The problem with the Trotskyist view of getting support for solutions they think will fail is that the plebs don't look to the hard left when the reforms fail, instead they go to Margaret Thatcher.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 17

Rakas21

Regarding the policy it is still stupid and caps are nothing more than an attempt to avoid dealing with the underlying issues however for May it is a holding action that solidifies her position while the government is too bogged down in Brexit to do much else before 2019.

Original post by Trapz99

Because that's not what the Conservatives are supposed to do. The conservatives are supposed to support the free market. Monetarism or the classical liberalism espoused by Hayek is what the Tories are supposed to be

While that may be the only Conservative Party that you have ever known, the modern Conservative Party is actually more akin to the victorian Liberal Party than its namesake. May is more or less a classic 1850-1980 Conservative.

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Says who? The Conservatives got on board with Kenysian economics during the Golden age of Capitalism. The Conservative party doesn't really have one single ideology.

Conservatism has historically been tied to a ruthless sense of pragmatism and a belief in morality being intertwined with government (not in a religious way but in government being guided by a set of principles). Ideologically though you are correct that the party is far from static. There is no copy of Marx from which we are constantly clinging to.

Reply 18

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by Rakas21

Regarding the policy it is still stupid and caps are nothing more than an attempt to avoid dealing with the underlying issues however for May it is a holding action that solidifies her position while the government is too bogged down in Brexit to do much else before 2019.

While that may be the only Conservative Party that you have ever known, the modern Conservative Party is actually more akin to the victorian Liberal Party than its namesake. May is more or less a classic 1850-1980 Conservative.

Conservatism has historically been tied to a ruthless sense of pragmatism and a belief in morality being intertwined with government (not in a religious way but in government being guided by a set of principles). Ideologically though you are correct that the party is far from static. There is no copy of Marx from which we are constantly clinging to.

Well they seem to be clinging to Friedman right now. The problem with the new right is they run out of stuff to privatise and deregulate. As you have already alluded to, the current crop of Conservatives are not actually conservatives. They are as ideological as any Marxist. We have just done the most none conservative break into the unknown. BREXIT! AND WITH NO PLAN! All thanks to the "conservative" party.

They got their revolution and now have no idea what to do with it. Conservatism is supposed to be sceptical of massive upheavals for fear there is an unknown necessity and stability derived from the fabric you are going to tear up to build some Utopian project.

I voted remain for reasons any honest conservative should recognise.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 19

PQ