Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    I saw it summed up well the other day by someone.
    Who, if they could, would wipe out every member of the opposite group.
    If Israel wanted to they could raise Gaza to the ground in a week without resorting to their nuclear stock. That is how we know they are going after Hamas targets. Totally ruthlessly and with little regard for collateral damage including children, but not deliberately.
    If Hamas had Nuclear missiles on the other hand and Israel didnt, Israel would be the biggest lump of glass on the planet.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)


    As someone who is neither Jewish nor Muslim, I remove myself entirely from the situation, as I feel that the worst decisions and opinions are made when they are ruled by their emotions. I take away all the history of the two peoples, and imagine two states, A, and B. And when I view things like this I ask myself, what would you rather be, A (Israeli) or B (Palestinian) and I find my answer being beyond any doubt A.
    What? :confused: You have already given yourself away -- there's no point in trying to hide behind a cloak of respectability now. You are clearly very emotionally invested in this issue:

    (Original post by Huskaris)
    If I was a Palestinian I would be getting a knife out and stabbing as many of the baby killing ***** as I could.

    Sticks and stones and all that. The jews will never let go of the holocaust because it somehow in their eyes, and in the eyes of many of their supporters, legitimises everything that they are currently doing.

    The Palestinians are paying for the sins of the Germans, and they really are paying for those sins in blood. They have a right to be aggrieved
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    'UN spokesman cries on camera after Gaza school attack'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ess-cries-gaza

    'How can journalists be objective when writing about dead children'

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-dead-children
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)
    I feel that the amount of civilian "crossfire" in this conflict is far beyond what anyone could consider collateral damage
    I'm not sure I agree with that. Israel is in an incredibly difficult situation, Hamas places their military assets in civilian areas, and civilian casualties have always been a feature of war. The number of Palestinians who have died in the present 3 week conflict with Israel is about the same number of people that have died every single week for the last 3 years in the Syrian Civil War. But I don't hear quite the same amount of outrage about that. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it is Je... I mean, Israelis, doing the killing.

    I believe that the war that Israel is fighting is very, very much a modern war fought in a 24 hour news climate. They are aware that the clock is ticking, the world will only accept a certain amount of war, the whole thing is perverse, but I believe that Israel is aware it is fighting against a clock, they can't fight for too long, or the international pressure will become too much, they have to get their tasks done in a very short period, this increases significantly the amount of crossfire civilian killings, we are as much an issue in this as Israel is, we demand to know everything now. And we want results from what we see instantaneously.
    You're absolutely right, so I find it really hard to fathom how you understand the geopolitical and diplomatic presures Israel and the IDF is under, and yet can call them the things you have. By the way, in the Pacific War, the Allies killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night, in the firebombing of Tokyo (not the nuclear bombs, just the dropping of incendiaries on Tokyo on 8/9 March 1945. And General Sherman, after being begged not to by the citizens of Atlanta, burned the city to the ground in the American Civil War, after telling the citizens "War is cruel. War is cruelty". And that's what it is, he was right. There's no getting around it, and there's no way to fight a clean war)

    As for the leaflets and texts that are sent, you have to ask where these people are supposed to flee to
    Well, if I was in Shujaiya and i received one of these leaflets saying the IDF was coming in force, and to leave, I'd go anywhere but where I already was. Whether that means escaping to the rural fields of Gaza (of which there are many, it's not just one big city), or moving to another town and sleeping on the street.

    I view things like this I ask myself, what would you rather be, A (Israeli) or B (Palestinian) and I find my answer being beyond any doubt A
    Can it really be said to be a moral failing of Israel that they have managed their country and their situation better, and more wisely, than their opponents?

    versus a group of people who have been displaced through no fault of their own, but as a consequence view total war as the only solution to resolve their problems, vowing to kill what they see as their occupiers at any cost.
    I question the assessment "through no fault of their own". In 1948, the UN partitioned the Levant into a Jewish State and an Arab State. Instead of accepting that, the Arabs chose to try to destroy the Jewish state (with significant support from the British). They failed. They tried again in 1967 and failed. You can't be the first resort to violence, and then complain about the outcome when you lose.]

    Furthermore, in 1967 Israel begged King Hussein of Jordan (Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time) not to intervene in the war and fight with Syria and Egypt. Israel said that if Jordan stayed their hand, so would Israel. Jordan chose to attack, and as a result the West Bank came under Israeli control. Israel did not seek, nor did they want that territory.

    It's a tough debate, and one that I don't claim to know the answer to, and feel like I could discuss with you at great length, maybe productively, maybe not as these things often are, but I'm sure we'd both enjoy it
    Fair enough I take your point about discussing it at length and productively, I was just a bit taken aback about your comment about "the Jews will never forget the holocaust" and them being baby killers and so on. Those are very harsh and emotive words, and I don't think they take into account the complexities and the history (like, for example, the point I mentioned above htat ISrael didn't even want the West Bank, and tried to prevent the war in which they conquered it). Anyway, point taken.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThatPerson)
    Secondly, the fact that these people may be palestinians means nothing as they don't represent all of the palestinian people.
    Except, of course, that the Mufti of Jerusalem in the WW2 period, who was a general representative of the "Palestinian" (read Arab people of Palestine) people met with Hitler, and allied himself to Hitler, and many representatives of the Palestinian people have engaged in Holocaust denial
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ashnard)
    What? :confused: You have already given yourself away -- there's no point in trying to hide behind a cloak of respectability now. You are clearly very emotionally invested in this issue:
    I understand entirely what you are saying. To clarify I 100% stand by what I say, if I was a Palestinian, I would be killing every single Israeli, in fact, every single Jew I could, that's just how I would feel.

    Conversely, if I was an Israeli, I wouldn't care in the slightest about all the civilians who die in the pursuit of safety for myself and the Israeli people. Both sets of people live in fear. If I was a civilian in either populace, I would completely be in favour of what my government (whatever side that may be) is doing. This is EXACTLY where all of the issues stem from.

    If I was to declare my personal position, I would find myself more in favour of the Palestinians based purely on a humanitarian basis, but I understand entirely 100% why the Israelis would do what they are doing. They are surrounded by enemies and have no choice but to be ever vigilant, a Jewish homeland MUST exist, and that sometimes requires lethal force.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    I still don't get it. I don't get why if you're angry about civvies getting killed, you start larging it about Hitler.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)
    I understand entirely what you are saying. To clarify I 100% stand by what I say, if I was a Palestinian, I would be killing every single Israeli, in fact, every single Jew I could, that's just how I would feel.

    Conversely, if I was an Israeli, I wouldn't care in the slightest about all the civilians who die in the pursuit of safety for myself and the Israeli people. Both sets of people live in fear. If I was a civilian in either populace, I would completely be in favour of what my government (whatever side that may be) is doing. This is EXACTLY where all of the issues stem from.

    If I was to declare my personal position, I would find myself more in favour of the Palestinians based purely on a humanitarian basis, but I understand entirely 100% why the Israelis would do what they are doing. They are surrounded by enemies and have no choice but to be ever vigilant, a Jewish homeland MUST exist, and that sometimes requires lethal force.
    PRSOM. ****ing spot on.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fanticipation)
    The results of this poll are utterly shocking. There is NO excuse for chanting profanity, whatever the situation.
    45% of people say theh were they right, what does that tell you??
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by young_guns)
    I'm not sure I agree with that. Israel is in an incredibly difficult situation, Hamas places their military assets in civilian areas, and civilian casualties have always been a feature of war. The number of Palestinians who have died in the present 3 week conflict with Israel is about the same number of people that have died every single week for the last 3 years in the Syrian Civil War. But I don't hear quite the same amount of outrage about that. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it is Je... I mean, Israelis, doing the killing.



    You're absolutely right, so I find it really hard to fathom how you understand the geopolitical and diplomatic presures Israel and the IDF is under, and yet can call them the things you have. By the way, in the Pacific War, the Allies killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night, in the firebombing of Tokyo (not the nuclear bombs, just the dropping of incendiaries on Tokyo on 8/9 March 1945. And General Sherman, after being begged not to by the citizens of Atlanta, burned the city to the ground in the American Civil War, after telling the citizens "War is cruel. War is cruelty". And that's what it is, he was right. There's no getting around it, and there's no way to fight a clean war)

    Well, if I was in Shujaiya and i received one of these leaflets saying the IDF was coming in force, and to leave, I'd go anywhere but where I already was. Whether that means escaping to the rural fields of Gaza (of which there are many, it's not just one big city), or moving to another town and sleeping on the street.



    Can it really be said to be a moral failing of Israel that they have managed their country and their situation better, and more wisely, than their opponents?



    I question the assessment "through no fault of their own". In 1948, the UN partitioned the Levant into a Jewish State and an Arab State. Instead of accepting that, the Arabs chose to try to destroy the Jewish state (with significant support from the British). They failed. They tried again in 1967 and failed. You can't be the first resort to violence, and then complain about the outcome when you lose.]

    Furthermore, in 1967 Israel begged King Hussein of Jordan (Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time) not to intervene in the war and fight with Syria and Egypt. Israel said that if Jordan stayed their hand, so would Israel. Jordan chose to attack, and as a result the West Bank came under Israeli control. Israel did not seek, nor did they want that territory.



    Fair enough I take your point about discussing it at length and productively, I was just a bit taken aback about your comment about "the Jews will never forget the holocaust" and them being baby killers and so on. Those are very harsh and emotive words, and I don't think they take into account the complexities and the history (like, for example, the point I mentioned above htat ISrael didn't even want the West Bank, and tried to prevent the war in which they conquered it). Anyway, point taken.
    I do agree largely with a lot of what you have just stated. I, and not only on this issue, but every single issue I look at, never have a dogmatic view, any view that is unbendable, is an illogical and (potentially) an extremist one.

    In simple terms, a lot of people are dying, needlessly, with a very good media war, one side is wealthy, well educated and media savvy, the other is very much the opposite, and at the moment, people who have absolutely nothing to do with terrorist actions are being killed.

    Now, this happens all over the world, and it is equally deplorable, but when it comes to other countries, for me the big difference is that the official position of the UK government and much of the western world is not to endorse what people like Al Assad are doing to their populations, whereas we have a pro Israeli policy in the west.

    As for the idea that Jews are doing things and therefore we all of a sudden have our backs up and want to go for them. I have to disagree. I feel that in the west we most certainly are more wary of Islam than we are of Judaism, the news is full of it, and the public appetite is far more anti Islam than it is anti Jewish, being anti semitic to put it simply, was so last season, Islam is the new bad kid on the block. I just think people see the completely unfair (militarily speaking) match and base their opinion on that.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)
    In simple terms, a lot of people are dying, needlessly,
    7

    I agree that it's needless; if Hamas had not commenced a rocket bombardment of Israel, then no Palestinians would be dying now.

    with a very good media war
    I should have thought the effective media war is being waged by Hamas, given the majority of sympathy is with them and most of the media images we see are of dead Palestinians. Why is it we've never seen the media being allowed to film Hamas firing rockets?

    people who have absolutely nothing to do with terrorist actions are being killed.
    I know. Isn't it deplorable that Hamas base their rocket launchers next to the houses of people who have nothing to do with their campaign, knowing it will result in them being killed?

    for me the big difference is that the official position of the UK government and much of the western world is not to endorse what people like Al Assad are doing to their populations, whereas we have a pro Israeli policy in the west.
    For me, the difference is that Assad has killed something like 100,000 Syrians, compared to 1500 Palestinians? Doesn't that seem relevant? And doesn't it seem relevant that the West has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than Israel has killed Palestinians?

    As for the idea that Jews are doing things and therefore we all of a sudden have our backs up and want to go for them. I have to disagree
    Presumably you would agree that as far as the Muslim world goes, though, that *is* the case. They get far more worked up about 1000 dead Palestinians than they do about 100,000 dead Muslims, if those Muslims were killed by other Muslims?

    The best analogy I can think of is in Afghanistan, the Taliban would give an 8 year old boy a grenade andtell him to throw it at British soldiers, knowing they would hesitate. It's a win-win, if they hesitate he throws it and kills them. If they shoot him, they say "Look, the bloodthirsty child killing brits shot an 8 year old boy"
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    'UN spokesman cries on camera after Gaza school attack'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ess-cries-gaza

    'How can journalists be objective when writing about dead children'

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-dead-children
    Ban Ki-moon has recently used some fairly strong language, calling the latest school bombing a "moral outrage and a criminal act".

    According to the Israeli military, they were targetting three terrorists.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    'UN spokesman cries on camera after Gaza school attack'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ess-cries-gaza

    'How can journalists be objective when writing about dead children'

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-dead-children
    Nobody (journalist) cried when Jewish children were murdered in the past 60 years.... along with Iraqi children, British/ Irish children, American children, Russian children, Ukrainian children and practicality every other nations children when they die in conflict.

    Dont be blinded by your hatred of the Jews, I've seen your posts on this site. The media is showing the emotive side, not the factual or a balanced view. As usual.

    Journalists should not be crying; it hinders their ability to do their job without personal emotions clouding their thoughts.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I hate Palestine more than anything else. Hitler was responsible for the deaths of not only the Jewish population but the UK, French, American, whole of Europe...I could go on.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by young_guns)
    7

    I agree that it's needless; if Hamas had not commenced a rocket bombardment of Israel, then no Palestinians would be dying now.



    I should have thought the effective media war is being waged by Hamas, given the majority of sympathy is with them and most of the media images we see are of dead Palestinians. Why is it we've never seen the media being allowed to film Hamas firing rockets?



    I know. Isn't it deplorable that Hamas base their rocket launchers next to the houses of people who have nothing to do with their campaign, knowing it will result in them being killed?



    For me, the difference is that Assad has killed something like 100,000 Syrians, compared to 1500 Palestinians? Doesn't that seem relevant? And doesn't it seem relevant that the West has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than Israel has killed Palestinians?



    Presumably you would agree that as far as the Muslim world goes, though, that *is* the case. They get far more worked up about 1000 dead Palestinians than they do about 100,000 dead Muslims, if those Muslims were killed by other Muslims?

    I genuinely believe that the "open prison" issue has actually made it get to the point where it is actually better to die fighting than a prisoner, the Palestinians are at best second class citizens in peace.

    Most of the media images are of dead Palestinians because most of the dead are... Palestinians... It's a media war that truly is of the modern day, both sides throwing everything they can at the cameras.

    And 100% yes, the Hamas basing their rocket sites alongside civilian sites is ENTIRELY part of the PR war, it is absolutely disgusting, absolutely shameful and it makes me feel sick, BUT it doesn't remove the fact that these people haven't done anything. Imagine the image of the tank, with the person in the way, do you think that tank should have run that man over to achieve it's goal?

    And yes, without a doubt, the world gets more worked up about Israel killing Palestinians than Muslim on Muslim war, and I say this with some hesitation, but genuinely believe this, the world largely does not expect more from these muslim dictatorships, as a largely "Western" democracy, we have higher standards placed on countries like Israel, if anything they are a victim of their own westernised culture!

    No doubt anyone that criticises what Israel does from a British/American perspective can only say so whilst being aware of the amazing levels of hypocrisy, but that doesn't make it any more right.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    PRSOM. ****ing spot on.
    Cheers mate, that means a lot It really does.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Genocide is never acceptable.

    But, neither is firing rockets at civilians. (Both Jews and Palestinians)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)
    I genuinely believe that the "open prison" issue has actually made it get to the point where it is actually better to die fighting than a prisoner, the Palestinians are at best second class citizens in peace.

    Most of the media images are of dead Palestinians because most of the dead are... Palestinians... It's a media war that truly is of the modern day, both sides throwing everything they can at the cameras.

    And 100% yes, the Hamas basing their rocket sites alongside civilian sites is ENTIRELY part of the PR war, it is absolutely disgusting, absolutely shameful and it makes me feel sick, BUT it doesn't remove the fact that these people haven't done anything. Imagine the image of the tank, with the person in the way, do you think that tank should have run that man over to achieve it's goal?

    And yes, without a doubt, the world gets more worked up about Israel killing Palestinians than Muslim on Muslim war, and I say this with some hesitation, but genuinely believe this, the world largely does not expect more from these muslim dictatorships, as a largely "Western" democracy, we have higher standards placed on countries like Israel, if anything they are a victim of their own westernised culture!

    No doubt anyone that criticises what Israel does from a British/American perspective can only say so whilst being aware of the amazing levels of hypocrisy, but that doesn't make it any more right.
    +1 rep if I could, I've been a bit of a green gem whore today
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Toxic_Legends)
    You sound like you're suggesting Israel is the victim. Anyways, you forgot the part where Israel do not want to sign the ceasefire?
    Neither did Hamas, in fact Hamas likes to brake ceasefires. They are both dicks.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by young_guns)
    +1 rep if I could, I've been a bit of a green gem whore today
    Pahaha I love you, I am actually getting in trouble with my girlfriend because I spend more time talking to you than her recently!!!!! :P
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: January 8, 2017
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.