Why do people import or impose American racial politics to Britain
I have heard people sincerely mention things that only have relevance to the US, especially regarding 'Black Lives Matter' issues (a la "redlining", "BIPOC").
I don't even know where to start - for one thing, there is no 1-to-1 equivalent of a Black American population in Britain. Unlike Black people in Britain, Black Americans have a common origin in Southeastern US states as the descendents of enslaved West Africans and have undergone an ethnogenesis of sorts. Over time, they were subject to legalised discrimination that has led to their unique circumstances today.
The closest equivalent might be people of Black Caribbean origin, but they have largely dispersed across Britain, are generally older and assimilated over the course of half a century - considering there was no strict legally enforced segregation.
Most Black people in Britain are of African origin and have arrived more recently under a completely different context to Black Americans. They have arrived as students, labour migrants, extended family members, refugees, etc. Among them are those who are educated/wealthy urbanites, or have zero connection to the British Empire (Ethiopians), or have no relevance to the transatlantic slave trade (Ugandans), and of course former colonies (Ghana). Their experiences of discrimination, and concepts like "equity vs equality", "White Privilege" don't neatly apply.
Not to mention that the largest ethnic minority group in Britain are South Asians -- not Latinos or Black Americans...
p.s. BIPOC - what even is Indigenous? ethnic Brits/Anglos??
I don't even know where to start - for one thing, there is no 1-to-1 equivalent of a Black American population in Britain. Unlike Black people in Britain, Black Americans have a common origin in Southeastern US states as the descendents of enslaved West Africans and have undergone an ethnogenesis of sorts. Over time, they were subject to legalised discrimination that has led to their unique circumstances today.
The closest equivalent might be people of Black Caribbean origin, but they have largely dispersed across Britain, are generally older and assimilated over the course of half a century - considering there was no strict legally enforced segregation.
Most Black people in Britain are of African origin and have arrived more recently under a completely different context to Black Americans. They have arrived as students, labour migrants, extended family members, refugees, etc. Among them are those who are educated/wealthy urbanites, or have zero connection to the British Empire (Ethiopians), or have no relevance to the transatlantic slave trade (Ugandans), and of course former colonies (Ghana). Their experiences of discrimination, and concepts like "equity vs equality", "White Privilege" don't neatly apply.
Not to mention that the largest ethnic minority group in Britain are South Asians -- not Latinos or Black Americans...
p.s. BIPOC - what even is Indigenous? ethnic Brits/Anglos??
(edited 1 year ago)
I am not sure about this specific topic, but it seems that most trends in the US sweep over to Europe with some years delay.
So to answer this specific question we might have to ask "Why do people import or impose American politics and ideas to Europe?"
My guess is that it goes still back to the times after WWII when the US was the only remaining superpower and the beacon of hope and freedom in the world. People looked at the US, saw what's going on there, and imported it to Europe. Maybe this mechanism is still intact and also explains why people import American racial politics to Britain.
So to answer this specific question we might have to ask "Why do people import or impose American politics and ideas to Europe?"
My guess is that it goes still back to the times after WWII when the US was the only remaining superpower and the beacon of hope and freedom in the world. People looked at the US, saw what's going on there, and imported it to Europe. Maybe this mechanism is still intact and also explains why people import American racial politics to Britain.
Original post by Thonking
I have heard people sincerely mention things that only have relevance to the US, especially regarding 'Black Lives Matter' issues (a la "redlining", "BIPOC").
I don't even know where to start - for one thing, there is no 1-to-1 equivalent of a Black American population in Britain. Unlike Black people in Britain, Black Americans have a common origin in Southeastern US states as the descendents of enslaved West Africans and have undergone an ethnogenesis of sorts. Over time, they were subject to legalised discrimination that has led to their unique circumstances today.
The closest equivalent might be people of Black Caribbean origin, but they have largely dispersed across Britain, are generally older and assimilated over the course of half a century - considering there was no strict legally enforced segregation.
Most Black people in Britain are of African origin and have arrived more recently under a completely different context to Black Americans. They have arrived as students, labour migrants, extended family members, refugees, etc. Among them are those who are educated/wealthy urbanites, or have zero connection to the British Empire (Ethiopians), or have no relevance to the transatlantic slave trade (Ugandans), and of course former colonies (Ghana). Their experiences of discrimination, and concepts like "equity vs equality", "White Privilege" don't neatly apply.
Not to mention that the largest ethnic minority group in Britain are South Asians -- not Latinos or Black Americans...
p.s. BIPOC - what even is Indigenous? ethnic Brits/Anglos??
I don't even know where to start - for one thing, there is no 1-to-1 equivalent of a Black American population in Britain. Unlike Black people in Britain, Black Americans have a common origin in Southeastern US states as the descendents of enslaved West Africans and have undergone an ethnogenesis of sorts. Over time, they were subject to legalised discrimination that has led to their unique circumstances today.
The closest equivalent might be people of Black Caribbean origin, but they have largely dispersed across Britain, are generally older and assimilated over the course of half a century - considering there was no strict legally enforced segregation.
Most Black people in Britain are of African origin and have arrived more recently under a completely different context to Black Americans. They have arrived as students, labour migrants, extended family members, refugees, etc. Among them are those who are educated/wealthy urbanites, or have zero connection to the British Empire (Ethiopians), or have no relevance to the transatlantic slave trade (Ugandans), and of course former colonies (Ghana). Their experiences of discrimination, and concepts like "equity vs equality", "White Privilege" don't neatly apply.
Not to mention that the largest ethnic minority group in Britain are South Asians -- not Latinos or Black Americans...
p.s. BIPOC - what even is Indigenous? ethnic Brits/Anglos??
What are you on about? Are you saying racism in the USA is different to racism in the UK simply because black people in the UK come from different places? Last time I looked, most black Americans just like most black Britons were born in the same country they live in. That same country that white people, also born there experience in a very different way.
BLM exists in the UK and US because black people suffer huge amounts of racism in every aspect of our respective societies.
As a general rule theyre perverse, counter productive and completely irrelevant to the UK. As blm is mentioned, that mostly centers around police killing blacks and the general legacy of slavery.. that does not really apply to the UK. Colonialism being utterly different.
The UK has its own issues with race relations, for better or worse but this constant p[olicyt of wholly importing American social issues is ridiculous. Now we have an inappropriate blm movement, gender issues with transsexualism taking off and all now identifying as anything and nothing - in itself neither good nor bad but the American take on domestic situation is stupid. Its unfortunately being set in stone with the introduction of perverse subjects like CRT and CGT etc.
All we have to do is see how loathed the rioters for these causes are. Not least in how bigoted they are, 'white silence is violence' and 'youre with us or against us' etc., etc. or possibly the nasty line of anyone who doesn't bow down and gouge their 'allyship' into their flesh on the gender cult is decried as a fascist, a violent one no less. The list goes on.
Again that doesn't mean the UK doesn't have its own issues but the French have a nice take on it and have declared this a nasty yankee import they want nothing to do with. a good take on the topic. After all, if you want to see how corrupt and perverse the whole thing is when transplanted into the UK without any of the moderating factors or nuances applied you can simply see some of the more unpleasant users on this site who just insult everyone, declare anyone who doesnbt agree with them to bew a nazi and so on so forth. I'm sure we've all met at least one of them but suffice it to say these people unpleasantly personify why American social issues have no place being brought to the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, without being modified for our purposes.
The UK has its own issues with race relations, for better or worse but this constant p[olicyt of wholly importing American social issues is ridiculous. Now we have an inappropriate blm movement, gender issues with transsexualism taking off and all now identifying as anything and nothing - in itself neither good nor bad but the American take on domestic situation is stupid. Its unfortunately being set in stone with the introduction of perverse subjects like CRT and CGT etc.
All we have to do is see how loathed the rioters for these causes are. Not least in how bigoted they are, 'white silence is violence' and 'youre with us or against us' etc., etc. or possibly the nasty line of anyone who doesn't bow down and gouge their 'allyship' into their flesh on the gender cult is decried as a fascist, a violent one no less. The list goes on.
Again that doesn't mean the UK doesn't have its own issues but the French have a nice take on it and have declared this a nasty yankee import they want nothing to do with. a good take on the topic. After all, if you want to see how corrupt and perverse the whole thing is when transplanted into the UK without any of the moderating factors or nuances applied you can simply see some of the more unpleasant users on this site who just insult everyone, declare anyone who doesnbt agree with them to bew a nazi and so on so forth. I'm sure we've all met at least one of them but suffice it to say these people unpleasantly personify why American social issues have no place being brought to the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, without being modified for our purposes.
Original post by Napp
As a general rule theyre perverse, counter productive and completely irrelevant to the UK. As blm is mentioned, that mostly centers around police killing blacks and the general legacy of slavery..
I don't think that is true at all. Are the Iranian protests about the killing of a young woman in police custardy because she didn't wear a headscarf or are they about the fact that the Iranian state is repressive and authoritarian?
Sure, BLM kicked off as a result of police brutality towards one or two black people, but that was just the trigger for a movement of people who have decided that living in a society that sees certainly people massively disadvantaged simply for the colour of their skin is not acceptable.
By trying to frame the issue on terms that suit you, unwittingly, you are part of the problem BLM are trying to overcome.
Original post by hotpud
I don't think that is true at all. Are the Iranian protests about the killing of a young woman in police custardy because she didn't wear a headscarf or are they about the fact that the Iranian state is repressive and authoritarian?
Sure, BLM kicked off as a result of police brutality towards one or two black people, but that was just the trigger for a movement of people who have decided that living in a society that sees certainly people massively disadvantaged simply for the colour of their skin is not acceptable.
By trying to frame the issue on terms that suit you, unwittingly, you are part of the problem BLM are trying to overcome.
Sure, BLM kicked off as a result of police brutality towards one or two black people, but that was just the trigger for a movement of people who have decided that living in a society that sees certainly people massively disadvantaged simply for the colour of their skin is not acceptable.
By trying to frame the issue on terms that suit you, unwittingly, you are part of the problem BLM are trying to overcome.
What does that have to do with America or the UK?
Suffice it to say the death was a catalyst.
those 2 were also catalysts but based on hundreds of deaths. albeit most were justified in that they were violent criminals..
one would counter that most of their disadvantage is due to them being poor or the like as opposed to the allegation (with no actual causal link i might add) that we're all racists and its our fault. After all, i see no law, not one, that disadvantages blacks in the UK ironically the only discriminatory laws are against whites.. but i digress.
Er this should be good
Pray tell how my noting that blm is an American junk organization has anything to do with the supposed problems?Suffice it to say blm (the organization...) is corrupt, self serving and racist to the core - i will gladly wear your accusation with honour this being the case. funds being stolen, others buying houses in white neighborhoods to get away from other black americans and the ghettos etc. etc.
I have no idea how you could defend an organization that is literally being investigated for corruption and is regularly decried as racist by African americans. No sane person could ever defend it.. not least when you said something about framing issues to suit me when i have no vested stake and thus nothing to frame it as...
Original post by Surnia
Maybe you could ask black footballers Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka and Jaden Sancho why racism should be tackled...
I didn't allude or imply "racism shouldn't be tackled".
Original post by hotpud
What are you on about? Are you saying racism in the USA is different to racism in the UK simply because black people in the UK come from different places? Last time I looked, most black Americans just like most black Britons were born in the same country they live in. That same country that white people, also born there experience in a very different way.
BLM exists in the UK and US because black people suffer huge amounts of racism in every aspect of our respective societies.
BLM exists in the UK and US because black people suffer huge amounts of racism in every aspect of our respective societies.
I was referring to people who reference things like "redlining" and "generational trauma" as examples of discrimination and causes of generational poverty in Britain... Like for example, Chiwetel Ejiofor's parents are well-educated migrants in the medical field. His circumstances are wholly different to a Black American from South Carolina that attended a HBCU whose ancestors were sharecroppers. Pretty much 90+% of Black Americans are US-born and multiple generations deep.... a significant portion of Black Britons are foreign born, presumably they moved to Britain because "huge amounts of racism" weren't a great enough obstacle to dissuade them. Even if they considered that to be insurmountable, they can presumably move back to their ancestral country of origin - Black Americans can not.
Most White people in Britain are ethnically British. White people in the US come from as diverse origins as Lebanon to Germany to Mexico.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Thonking
I didn't allude or imply "racism shouldn't be tackled".
You said 'Black Lives Matter' doesn't matter because it's only relevant to the US. The sentiment can be supported without the organisation.
Original post by hotpud
What are you on about? Are you saying racism in the USA is different to racism in the UK simply because black people in the UK come from different places? Last time I looked, most black Americans just like most black Britons were born in the same country they live in. That same country that white people, also born there experience in a very different way.
BLM exists in the UK and US because black people suffer huge amounts of racism in every aspect of our respective societies.
BLM exists in the UK and US because black people suffer huge amounts of racism in every aspect of our respective societies.
To compare Britain and American societal issues with black people seems somewhat/... que
Questioable. We do not have the history that they do which is in no small part one of the major causes of current frictions.
Never mind that we never really had the institutionalized racism of America. They had countless specific laws excluding blacks from aspects of society. Be it subtly manipulating voting rights, banning them from public transport, no bi-racial relationships and so on so forth. The people supporting BLM, both the cause and the group, seem to miss this more than slightly important detail. Not to mention, half of the people screaming about it seem to be using it as little more than a trojan horse to advance their own interests. Advocating for black people so they get fair treatment, no police brutality etc, is all fine and dandy but when it is presented alongside gay and transsexual rights (in the same breath, not simply as a similar cause)sweeing one cause being, for lack of a better words, hijacked and blended in to another one is abit iffy for me. After all, the way it is advocated states 'party A cannot have X rights if party B doesn't'.
However, my tangent aside, what 'huge discrepancy' do black people suffer in the UK? Aside from the usual hoary old ones.
disproportionate amount of arrests//jailings - being arrested more doesn't really imply racism, in my view, as more crimes are being committed in that area by people matching the description. In short, black people commit disproportionate amount of crimes causing other black people to ber suspected more.
disproportionate poverty - Whilst i happily admit that this is much more complex than 'work harder' the comment is not exactly untrue and the causes are far wider and more complex than simply "racism"
Healthcare outcomes - I have yet to see how this isn actually the case other than by said peoples accounts that theyve been discriminated against (about as trustworthy as those nut bars who say they've been attacked by "micro aggressions".
To summarise, Britains notional race problems are completely different in almost all aspects from the American ones. Itas really caught nicely in the fact that black people have to be taught how not to get shot in America. that really speaks volumes about their relationship with race. I don't know about you but if Britain were comparable in its attitudes to blacks in America i think it would be bigger news calling for serious introspection.
Original post by Napp
To compare Britain and American societal issues with black people seems somewhat/... que
Questioable. We do not have the history that they do which is in no small part one of the major causes of current frictions.
Never mind that we never really had the institutionalized racism of America. They had countless specific laws excluding blacks from aspects of society. Be it subtly manipulating voting rights, banning them from public transport, no bi-racial relationships and so on so forth. The people supporting BLM, both the cause and the group, seem to miss this more than slightly important detail. Not to mention, half of the people screaming about it seem to be using it as little more than a trojan horse to advance their own interests. Advocating for black people so they get fair treatment, no police brutality etc, is all fine and dandy but when it is presented alongside gay and transsexual rights (in the same breath, not simply as a similar cause)sweeing one cause being, for lack of a better words, hijacked and blended in to another one is abit iffy for me. After all, the way it is advocated states 'party A cannot have X rights if party B doesn't'.
However, my tangent aside, what 'huge discrepancy' do black people suffer in the UK? Aside from the usual hoary old ones.
disproportionate amount of arrests//jailings - being arrested more doesn't really imply racism, in my view, as more crimes are being committed in that area by people matching the description. In short, black people commit disproportionate amount of crimes causing other black people to ber suspected more.
disproportionate poverty - Whilst i happily admit that this is much more complex than 'work harder' the comment is not exactly untrue and the causes are far wider and more complex than simply "racism"
Healthcare outcomes - I have yet to see how this isn actually the case other than by said peoples accounts that theyve been discriminated against (about as trustworthy as those nut bars who say they've been attacked by "micro aggressions".
To summarise, Britains notional race problems are completely different in almost all aspects from the American ones. Itas really caught nicely in the fact that black people have to be taught how not to get shot in America. that really speaks volumes about their relationship with race. I don't know about you but if Britain were comparable in its attitudes to blacks in America i think it would be bigger news calling for serious introspection.
Questioable. We do not have the history that they do which is in no small part one of the major causes of current frictions.
Never mind that we never really had the institutionalized racism of America. They had countless specific laws excluding blacks from aspects of society. Be it subtly manipulating voting rights, banning them from public transport, no bi-racial relationships and so on so forth. The people supporting BLM, both the cause and the group, seem to miss this more than slightly important detail. Not to mention, half of the people screaming about it seem to be using it as little more than a trojan horse to advance their own interests. Advocating for black people so they get fair treatment, no police brutality etc, is all fine and dandy but when it is presented alongside gay and transsexual rights (in the same breath, not simply as a similar cause)sweeing one cause being, for lack of a better words, hijacked and blended in to another one is abit iffy for me. After all, the way it is advocated states 'party A cannot have X rights if party B doesn't'.
However, my tangent aside, what 'huge discrepancy' do black people suffer in the UK? Aside from the usual hoary old ones.
disproportionate amount of arrests//jailings - being arrested more doesn't really imply racism, in my view, as more crimes are being committed in that area by people matching the description. In short, black people commit disproportionate amount of crimes causing other black people to ber suspected more.
disproportionate poverty - Whilst i happily admit that this is much more complex than 'work harder' the comment is not exactly untrue and the causes are far wider and more complex than simply "racism"
Healthcare outcomes - I have yet to see how this isn actually the case other than by said peoples accounts that theyve been discriminated against (about as trustworthy as those nut bars who say they've been attacked by "micro aggressions".
To summarise, Britains notional race problems are completely different in almost all aspects from the American ones. Itas really caught nicely in the fact that black people have to be taught how not to get shot in America. that really speaks volumes about their relationship with race. I don't know about you but if Britain were comparable in its attitudes to blacks in America i think it would be bigger news calling for serious introspection.
I'll bite - "ethnic minorities in Britain were disproportionality affected by COVID-related deaths"
Let's concede 50% of the reason for this is institutional racism in the NHS. What other reasons unrelated to race, may there be for these disparities? Perhaps they live in multi-generational households, maybe they themselves or have family members who work in a hospital where they obviously come into contact with Covid, or they're poorer and have low income public-facing jobs. Racism? Maybe. What if their proficency of English isn't great, or they have qualifications unrecognised in Britain/only educated up to primary school level in their home country, or they only have 1 working person in a household of 5 people.
It might be more enlightening and informative to compare outcomes between a sample 3rd generation British Indian, 3rd generation Afro-Caribbean, 3rd generation White European, working class White English, middle class White English.
Moved to world politics
Original post by Thonking
I'll bite - "ethnic minorities in Britain were disproportionality affected by COVID-related deaths"
Let's concede 50% of the reason for this is institutional racism in the NHS. What other reasons unrelated to race, may there be for these disparities? Perhaps they live in multi-generational households, maybe they themselves or have family members who work in a hospital where they obviously come into contact with Covid, or they're poorer and have low income public-facing jobs. Racism? Maybe. What if their proficency of English isn't great, or they have qualifications unrecognised in Britain/only educated up to primary school level in their home country, or they only have 1 working person in a household of 5 people.
It might be more enlightening and informative to compare outcomes between a sample 3rd generation British Indian, 3rd generation Afro-Caribbean, 3rd generation White European, working class White English, middle class White English.
Let's concede 50% of the reason for this is institutional racism in the NHS. What other reasons unrelated to race, may there be for these disparities? Perhaps they live in multi-generational households, maybe they themselves or have family members who work in a hospital where they obviously come into contact with Covid, or they're poorer and have low income public-facing jobs. Racism? Maybe. What if their proficency of English isn't great, or they have qualifications unrecognised in Britain/only educated up to primary school level in their home country, or they only have 1 working person in a household of 5 people.
It might be more enlightening and informative to compare outcomes between a sample 3rd generation British Indian, 3rd generation Afro-Caribbean, 3rd generation White European, working class White English, middle class White English.
I always found this somewhat strange, the implies that a virus has a racial gripe, something i'm sure we can all agree is hilariously idiotic. Alas, thanks to that phrase, people have actually gone around saying it and believing it, rather fun (if depressing both in what it describes and what it implies) to argue the toss on it though. Its more than a touch misleading though. It has nothing to do with covid, in itself. Merely a reflection on the socio-economic of the unfortunate people who have tended to die.
On the last paragraph though, true enough on that, i wonder if anyone has managed to compile enough of the relevant data to make a vaguely accurate comparison? Te results from Africa, for example, were always rather interesting in that they prima facie appeared to have a much lower incidence rate. Alberit how much that is down to simple crappy data collection is up for debate.
Then again, for a people who regularly get and survive all manner of nasty diseases (i dont think anyone has ever claimed tropical areas of then world are safe in that regard) covid should have been a walk in the park.
Original post by Surnia
Maybe you could ask black footballers Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka and Jaden Sancho why racism should be tackled...
You mean the idiot gareth southgates poor choices then hid behind racism to deflect their failure while massively insulting english fans after already having a divisive media campaign during Euro 2020 against them from BT which was repeated with EE and the womens Euro 2022?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZgHc3-baFU
Dunno. I think race debates need to stop. There will most likely never be an agreement here.
Original post by TheStupidMoon
You mean the idiot gareth southgates poor choices then hid behind racism to deflect their failure while massively insulting english fans after already having a divisive media campaign during Euro 2020 against them from BT which was repeated with EE and the womens Euro 2022?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZgHc3-baFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZgHc3-baFU
No, I mean that the racist abuse directed at those, and aby other black players, should be tackled.
Why isn't there a significant movement demanding reparations for the Middle East? The west engaged in awful war crimes within living memory. Many of the victimised individuals are still alive.
Original post by robertafaladee
Presumably you are white and have never had to experience what it is like in society to occasionally feel afraid when you go out, or to hear racist comments towards you (I'm mixed race and have had police officers say white lives matter to me, or on the day of the game had white men called me a ******) or to go to places other than the big cities and have people stare at you. Being followed around in shops. The Commonwealth, post-colonialism and the depletion of resources in commonwealth countries e.g. Nigeria - (which are still constrained by the underdevelopment caused by the West during Colonialism) were largely based on Western superiority and racism. To even put forward the notion that institutional racism doesn't exist is borderline evil, to attempt to erase the transatlantic slave trade and 'no dogs, no Irish, no blacks' - is delusional. Individuals with ethnic sounding names, when submitting UCAS applications are less likely to get offers EVEN if they have the same grades - due to racial bias. British imperialism drained the resources of African colonies to such a large extent and has brought racial stereotypes, racial discrimination that is ingrained in our political, social and economic systems.
The Commonwealth doesn't really mean much... it's mostly a cultural organisation and a way to establish a dialogue with friendly countries. Countries are free to leave and even rejoin (many of them already have - like Pakistan). There are even countries that were never even part of the British Empire that have joined - for example: Gabon, Rwanda, Mozambique.
British Imperialism is a broad subject, whether it was a good/bad/neutral thing depends entirely on the colony. The first British colony in America was established all the way back in 1607! The motivation for establishing a colony varied a whole lot. It could have been for trade & resources, placating a local ally, simply a means to another end, have a protected state with a strong colonial power for defense, spreading Christianity, as a symbol of international prestige, countering competing powers.
For Nigeria specifically, it was ostensibly to stop further transportation of slaves across the ocean. The British actually shelled Lagos in the 1800s to restore Akitoye as ruler because he was willing to abolish the slave trade in the region. The British later became interested in Nigeria primarily for palm oil and as a place to export goods to (like cotton). Local political forces weren't exactly innocent victims and more often than not were collaborators in establishing colonies and protectorates. In Uganda for instance, a coalition of Catholics and Protestants under Mwanga II established an alliance with the British East Africa Company to oust a Muslim faction from power.
At the end of the day, these are sovereign countries (former British colonies specifically) and have complete control over their own affairs. They are free to rule and do whatever they choose... they can establish autonomous states, or become a federal country or even force a region of their country to secede - like Singapore, a country/city-state established by Malaysia because there were too many Chinese in Singapore.
Britain in the modern day has about as much influence in former colonies as Vietnam does to Barbados, the most Britain can do is send a strongly-worded letter saying "they're displeased with the sudden anti-democratic turn and hyperinflation in Zimbabwe".
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