Studying in the US

I would really appreciate some help from anybody with the experience as to where the best place to study would be. I have recently been considering attending university in the US but that would be quite a risk and I would have to ensure that it would be the best decision to make. Lets face it, the best law universities in the world are in the US and everybody here knows what kind of money lawyers on Wall Street are on. However I am having trouble understanding how their system of education works. Apparently, law in the US is treated as a graduate course where as in the UK it is treated as an undergraduate one. In order to obtain a J.D. degree in the US one must complete an undergrad degree first. So what happens in the case of international students who have been studying UK curriculum and have obtained their A-level grades but have not taken their undergraduate course yet. If I am able to take the S.A.Ts and LSAT that the US universities want, how would they accept me to undergo a graduate program when I have not completed an undergraduate yet?
Can someone please tell me what happens to international students PLEASE!
Also can anyone tell me whether it is true that the US offers a lot more opportunities than the UK?
Thanks

Reply 1

chandni

11

if you look on the uni's websites a lot of them say what they require from international students.

Reply 2

Lawz-

14

Death

Lets face it, the best law universities in the world are in the US

I would disagree - Oxbridge rivals Harvard, Yale and Columbia quite easily.

Death

and everybody here knows what kind of money lawyers on Wall Street are on.

You can earn it in the UK by doing what I did, and joining a US firm here. PLus you dont pay out like 200k for law school.

Also just so you know - to get into BIGLAW you will have to go to a top 10 - maybe even top 5 school, and do well there.... getting in alone will require a 175+ on the LSATs

Death

However I am having trouble understanding how their system of education works. Apparently, law in the US is treated as a graduate course where as in the UK it is treated as an undergraduate one. In order to obtain a J.D. degree in the US one must complete an undergrad degree first.

Correct.

Death

So what happens in the case of international students who have been studying UK curriculum and have obtained their A-level grades but have not taken their undergraduate course yet. If I am able to take the S.A.Ts and LSAT that the US universities want, how would they accept me to undergo a graduate program when I have not completed an undergraduate yet?
Can someone please tell me what happens to international students PLEASE!
Also can anyone tell me whether it is true that the US offers a lot more opportunities than the UK?
Thanks

You will not be eligible till you do an undergrad course. You can jump from High School to law school... sorry

Though if you do a UK law degree at a good uni - you can in some unis like Harvard be admitted for advanced standing and then get your JD in the space of 2 years instead of 3.

However like I say - dont be fooled - the 125k a year is HARD to get - many people fall by the side of the road.

Reply 3

Lauren18

14

Hi I don't know much about this, but this is what I do know - someone please correct me if I'm wrong:

Like here, I believe that Unis which have excellent reputations overall usually have excellent legal reputations, examples would be:

Harvard
University of California in Berkeley
Stanford
Yale, etc...

I believe that both domestic and international undergraduates often complete a Liberal Arts degree if they want to do their degree in the USA - apparently there are 217 places where you can do this. I know some of my American friends talk of majoring in certain subjects - from this I've assumed that they do a four year general degree and then 'major' in a specific subject at some point later.

For Law there are 177 accredited schools. According to http://collegeapps.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawrank%5Fbrief.php these are the 'best' ones (2004 league table):

1. Yale University (CT)
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. Stanford University (CA)
4. Columbia University (NY)
5. New York University (NY)
6. University of Chicago (MA)
7. University of Pennsylvania (PA)
8. University of Michigan at Ann-Arbor (MI)
9. University of Virginia (VA)
10. NorthWestern University (IL)
11. Cornell University (NY)
12. Duke University (NC)
13. University of California at Berkeley (CA)
14. Georgetown University (DC) - lovely campus - I've been there - a beautiful suburb of Washington with all the American stores closeby
15. University of California at LA (CA)
16. University of Texas at Austin (TX)
17. Vanderbilt University (TN)
18. University of Southern California (CA)
19. University of Minnesota at Twin Cities
20. Boston University (MA)

I believe that most UK students who want to study Law in the US do their UG degree here (often not in Law) and then go onto one of the above to specialise. For example, most of the fellows who interviewed me at Cambridge seemed to have done their Masters etc at Yale.

The websites for US Unis all end in .edu, e.g. www.yale.edu or www.utexas.edu - you're probably best looking at some of these for more detalied information.

A good site is I found www.usastudyguide.com.

The main thing to say about US unis is the scope of the fees - at most of the places mentioned you could be looking at paying over $30,000 per academic year - this is currently around £16,500. Obviously this is a lot more than you'd pay in the UK, although many of the top Unis offer assistance - look at their websites for help.

You can also get qualifications in the UK accredited by American Unis - see this page: http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/studyuk/usschools/undergrad.html - a lot of the places you can do this are in London. Studying at such a place gives you credits which you can use to transfer to American institutions in the USA.

A good page of general info is this:
http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/studyus/index.html

As regarding the LSAT and SATs, if you're applying for 2005 entry you may be too late as I believe the closing dates for applications have passed, but I'm not 100% on this. The Fulbright Commission says you should take these tests 12 month before commencing study.

This is an excellent page with loads of useful links:

http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/studyus/undergraduate/index.html

If you're applying for 2006 entry, you could go to the USA College Day in Covent Garden on Sat 1st October 2005, where reps from 100 Unis will be there - see:

http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/studyus/events/collegeday.html

Anyway, thats pretty much everything I know - hope it helps you and thanks for giving me a break from revising! Good luck

Reply 4

Annik

2

Death

I would really appreciate some help from anybody with the experience as to where the best place to study would be. I have recently been considering attending university in the US but that would be quite a risk and I would have to ensure that it would be the best decision to make. Lets face it, the best law universities in the world are in the US and everybody here knows what kind of money lawyers on Wall Street are on. However I am having trouble understanding how their system of education works. Apparently, law in the US is treated as a graduate course where as in the UK it is treated as an undergraduate one. In order to obtain a J.D. degree in the US one must complete an undergrad degree first. So what happens in the case of international students who have been studying UK curriculum and have obtained their A-level grades but have not taken their undergraduate course yet. If I am able to take the S.A.Ts and LSAT that the US universities want, how would they accept me to undergo a graduate program when I have not completed an undergraduate yet?
Can someone please tell me what happens to international students PLEASE!
Also can anyone tell me whether it is true that the US offers a lot more opportunities than the UK?
Thanks

where bouts do ya live??

Reply 5

Lawz-

14

Lauren18

Hi I don't know much about this, but this is what I do know - someone please correct me if I'm wrong:

I believe that most UK students who want to study Law in the US do their UG degree here (often not in Law) and then go onto one of the above to specialise. For example, most of the fellows who interviewed me at Cambridge seemed to have done their Masters etc at Yale.

One point - If the people at Cambridge did an LLM at Yale (which is well known for ACADEMIC based masters) - Then they did a prior law degree somewhere. They probably did it later in their career, or did an UG in law here.

Reply 6

Lauren18

14

Lawzzzzzz

One point - If the people at Cambridge did an LLM at Yale (which is well known for ACADEMIC based masters) - Then they did a prior law degree somewhere. They probably did it later in their career, or did an UG in law here.

Yes I realise this, didn't think it was necessary to point out as most people assume that Cambridge fellows have degrees in the subjects in which they lecture or supervise.

Reply 7

Lawz-

14

Lauren18

Yes I realise this, didn't think it was necessary to point out as most people assume that Cambridge fellows have degrees in the subjects in which they lecture or supervise.

Well you put it that those "who want to study Law in the US do their UG degree here (often not in Law) and then go onto one of the above to specialise" and then gave as an "example" that many who interviewed you had LLMs from Yale. So I got confused

Reply 8

tommorris

17

You could always study LL.B here, then you've got a starting point if you decide to become a British lawyer. Then if you decide to go Stateside, you've also got a Bachelor's that's suitable for graduate study (like a JD).

Reply 9

Phonicsdude

19

you seem very knowledgeable on the topic! how come PJ!?

Reply 10

mobb_theprequel

15

Have a look at the law schools forum on this site: www.collegeconfidential.com

Reply 11

treff

1

It's a very different educational system. Whereas college admission in the UK is primarily based on examination grades, US college admission considers high school performance, scores from certain tests (SAT I and/or II), and extracurricular activities (albeit to a minor degree only, supposedly). Also, unlike UK unis which have "standard offers" (e.g. an AAA is a standard offer from Oxbridge), there is often no "standard offer" from US unis, even with respect to SAT scores. So both acceptance and rejection from a good uni is possible with great SAT scores and less than stellar high school marks, for example. Additionally, US law schools often do not have "standard offers" (though they may have minimum requirements to make the selection process faster and easier), so it's possible to get really high LSAT scores and still not get accepted to Ivy League law schools.

In general, people who want to become lawyers under the American system have to take a four-year bachelor's degree (which covers most courses) which is considered as "pre-law." They then go on to law school, where completion accords a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree. US law schools also already include "vocational legal training" which, in the UK system, is undertaken separately after the bachelor's degree in law. This means that US law school graduates can practice law immediately after graduation (pending a pass in the bar exam).

If you intend to study law in the US after undergraduate studies in the UK, you may make things less complicated by undertaking a UK bachelor's degree in any course first, and then apply to a US law school afterwards. In this manner, you won't have to take the SATs (which is used for undergraduate admission), and you just have to do well in the LSATs (which is used for law school admission). This will also make it easier for US law school admissions committees to understand that your UK bachelor's degree is your "pre-law."

USNews (www.usnews.com) publishes one of the more popular university guides with rankings, similar to those made by The Times and Guardian. They have a separate table for law schools, and includes some other variables often not included in other university rankings like student-teacher ratio, financial support, etc. I found them helpful; it's worth a look.

I actually had a similar problem before, but it was actually the reverse--I was used to the American system, so I had to learn how the UK one works. Hope this helps :smile:

Reply 12

Death

OP

Wow...this is great stuff. I must admit you guys have really helped me out and just to think I only posted this a few hours ago! A lot of detail there for me to think about. I must say that it is very difficult for me to make my mind up between US and UK. Personally I've always dreamt of living in the US but if things are going to be so much easier in the UK then I don't really think it's worth it.
In answer to Annyk's question, I am currently residing in Cyprus where I am tenaciously revising for my IGCSEs this May!!!
I am a little confused with the following treff:

"If you intend to study law in the US after undergraduate studies in the UK, you may make things less complicated by undertaking a UK bachelor's degree in any course first, and then apply to a US law school afterwards. In this manner, you won't have to take the SATs (which is used for undergraduate admission), and you just have to do well in the LSATs (which is used for law school admission). This will also make it easier for US law school admissions committees to understand that your UK bachelor's degree is your "pre-law."
I understand the logic behind it, but is it really worth it. I mean by the time I am done with my A-levels I will be 18 going on to 19. Then I will have to do a 3 years BA at UK university. That would make me 22. And only then would I be able to apply for the 3 year JD in the US. After taking an undergrad in law in the UK one must follow that on with either training to be a solicitor or barrister right? In the US though after completing the JD do you go ahead and start practicing right away?
One more thing...what does UG stand for? (University Graduate perhaps???)

Reply 13

at least lara

1

true, most american law school grads do get offers at firms,etc. right out of college.

UG=undergraduate

Reply 14

curryADD

12

Death

I would really appreciate some help from anybody with the experience as to where the best place to study would be. I have recently been considering attending university in the US but that would be quite a risk and I would have to ensure that it would be the best decision to make. Lets face it, the best law universities in the world are in the US and everybody here knows what kind of money lawyers on Wall Street are on. However I am having trouble understanding how their system of education works. Apparently, law in the US is treated as a graduate course where as in the UK it is treated as an undergraduate one. In order to obtain a J.D. degree in the US one must complete an undergrad degree first. So what happens in the case of international students who have been studying UK curriculum and have obtained their A-level grades but have not taken their undergraduate course yet. If I am able to take the S.A.Ts and LSAT that the US universities want, how would they accept me to undergo a graduate program when I have not completed an undergraduate yet?
Can someone please tell me what happens to international students PLEASE!
Also can anyone tell me whether it is true that the US offers a lot more opportunities than the UK?
Thanks

ok, what you want to do (I know its expensive) is call the admissions office. or, you can email them and ask what the transfer for A-levels is. trust me, harvard has a whole section in its admissions booklet about this. basically (I would think) that they would test you out of courses when you got to the university to see how far along you are since you have not taken AP courses which are standard transference.

and you MUST go throught a undergrad program before they will let you into a graduate program. you can't be skipped....... :rolleyes:

Reply 15

curryADD

12

Death

Wow...this is great stuff. I must admit you guys have really helped me out and just to think I only posted this a few hours ago! A lot of detail there for me to think about. I must say that it is very difficult for me to make my mind up between US and UK. Personally I've always dreamt of living in the US but if things are going to be so much easier in the UK then I don't really think it's worth it.
In answer to Annyk's question, I am currently residing in Cyprus where I am tenaciously revising for my IGCSEs this May!!!
I am a little confused with the following treff:

"If you intend to study law in the US after undergraduate studies in the UK, you may make things less complicated by undertaking a UK bachelor's degree in any course first, and then apply to a US law school afterwards. In this manner, you won't have to take the SATs (which is used for undergraduate admission), and you just have to do well in the LSATs (which is used for law school admission). This will also make it easier for US law school admissions committees to understand that your UK bachelor's degree is your "pre-law."
I understand the logic behind it, but is it really worth it. I mean by the time I am done with my A-levels I will be 18 going on to 19. Then I will have to do a 3 years BA at UK university. That would make me 22. And only then would I be able to apply for the 3 year JD in the US. After taking an undergrad in law in the UK one must follow that on with either training to be a solicitor or barrister right? In the US though after completing the JD do you go ahead and start practicing right away?
One more thing...what does UG stand for? (University Graduate perhaps???)

after done with your three years after your UG then you take "the bar" (a test) and can (if you pass) immediately start practicing.

Reply 16

Death

OP

What are AP courses?

Reply 17

at least lara

1

AP= Advanced Placement courses. they're courses you take in high school that are supposed to be close enough in curriculum to a similar UG class with similar expectations. in the spring they have AP EXAMS. by doing well on one, u can add that to ur credits and finish up university faster, or be applicable for advanced standing at ur prospective univ.

Reply 18

Lawz-

14

Death

Wow...this is great stuff. I must admit you guys have really helped me out and just to think I only posted this a few hours ago! A lot of detail there for me to think about. I must say that it is very difficult for me to make my mind up between US and UK. Personally I've always dreamt of living in the US but if things are going to be so much easier in the UK then I don't really think it's worth it.
In answer to Annyk's question, I am currently residing in Cyprus where I am tenaciously revising for my IGCSEs this May!!!
I am a little confused with the following treff:

"If you intend to study law in the US after undergraduate studies in the UK, you may make things less complicated by undertaking a UK bachelor's degree in any course first, and then apply to a US law school afterwards. In this manner, you won't have to take the SATs (which is used for undergraduate admission), and you just have to do well in the LSATs (which is used for law school admission). This will also make it easier for US law school admissions committees to understand that your UK bachelor's degree is your "pre-law."
I understand the logic behind it, but is it really worth it. I mean by the time I am done with my A-levels I will be 18 going on to 19. Then I will have to do a 3 years BA at UK university. That would make me 22. And only then would I be able to apply for the 3 year JD in the US. After taking an undergrad in law in the UK one must follow that on with either training to be a solicitor or barrister right? In the US though after completing the JD do you go ahead and start practicing right away?
One more thing...what does UG stand for? (University Graduate perhaps???)