Why are maintenance loans partly based on parental income?
Could someone explain this to me? I don't understand why, once you've left your parents house and are an adult, the maintenance loans you receive at uni are partly decided by your parents' income.
Such a policy is basically forcing people with higher-income parents to be reliant on parental handouts. Not all children want that, and not all parents are willing to provide the financial support to their grown children that the government expects them to. Either the children with higher-income parents are forced to get money from their parents, or they struggle hugely with university. I don't feel that is the best system.
Since everyone has similar living costs, shouldn't the maintenance loan just be one, non-means tested amount, enough to cover expected living costs, for everyone which everyone pays back? Of course some wealthy parents might give their children hand-outs anyway, but we shouldn't instead have a system where they are almost OBLIGED to give these handouts, surely? Isn't one loan for everyone the fairest solution?
Such a policy is basically forcing people with higher-income parents to be reliant on parental handouts. Not all children want that, and not all parents are willing to provide the financial support to their grown children that the government expects them to. Either the children with higher-income parents are forced to get money from their parents, or they struggle hugely with university. I don't feel that is the best system.
Since everyone has similar living costs, shouldn't the maintenance loan just be one, non-means tested amount, enough to cover expected living costs, for everyone which everyone pays back? Of course some wealthy parents might give their children hand-outs anyway, but we shouldn't instead have a system where they are almost OBLIGED to give these handouts, surely? Isn't one loan for everyone the fairest solution?
(edited 13 years ago)
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Original post by Blueflare
Life isn't fair.
/thread.
/thread.
Life isn't fair... so we should do nothing about things we find unfair? Good logic -_-
(edited 13 years ago)
I would be keen to see a system where there are no bursaries, but larger loans instead, available to any student irrespective of parental background.
I don't see why parental income should even be a factor when going to university is ultimately the time when you have a brief moment of social mobility in which you have the potential to decide your own future income bracket. It therefore seems strange to consider parental income.
I don't see why parental income should even be a factor when going to university is ultimately the time when you have a brief moment of social mobility in which you have the potential to decide your own future income bracket. It therefore seems strange to consider parental income.
Original post by innerhollow
Life isn't fair... so we should do nothing about things we find unfair? Good logic -_-
I never said that.
What would you propose instead then?
Original post by Blueflare
I never said that.
Then why did you go, "life isn't fair?"
What would you propose instead then?
Did you even read my post? I stated quite clearly, I want one mainteance loan for everyone that is NOT assessed against your parents' income.
Original post by GodspeedGehenna
I would be keen to see a system where there are no bursaries, but larger loans instead, available to any student irrespective of parental background.
I don't see why parental income should even be a factor when going to university is ultimately the time when you have a brief moment of social mobility in which you have the potential to decide your own future income bracket. It therefore seems strange to consider parental income.
I don't see why parental income should even be a factor when going to university is ultimately the time when you have a brief moment of social mobility in which you have the potential to decide your own future income bracket. It therefore seems strange to consider parental income.
YES. Thank you Godspeed!
Grants/bursaries make no sense to me, once you're at university you should be on a level playing field. Everyone pays the same tuition fees, and has very similar living costs, so there shouldn't be a disparity in student finance- everyone should have access to loans which cover all your costs of university and are paid back on a fair repayment schedule.(edited 13 years ago)
I believe it should. That or at least change the circumstances. Once someone's offspring (trying not to use the term "child/kid" here) have gone to uni they can't be expected to pay for their living costs for the duration of their degree surely?
It might be ok if the current government could sort out all the unemployment and have more jobs available so students could help to fund their own way but that's not possible either.
I'd love to see what the governments intention is. They raise the tuition fees cap, and will thus have to raise their loans in the short term to cope with the demand of students attending university and give all an oppotunity to attend. If they don't they are going to have the unemployment stats shoot up to stupid levels and will have to pay for that too.
I see little point in Bursaries as well. Scholarships are different but what good do bursaries do?
It might be ok if the current government could sort out all the unemployment and have more jobs available so students could help to fund their own way but that's not possible either.
I'd love to see what the governments intention is. They raise the tuition fees cap, and will thus have to raise their loans in the short term to cope with the demand of students attending university and give all an oppotunity to attend. If they don't they are going to have the unemployment stats shoot up to stupid levels and will have to pay for that too.
I see little point in Bursaries as well. Scholarships are different but what good do bursaries do?
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Loz17
I believe it should. That or at least change the circumstances. Once someone's offspring (trying not to use the term "child/kid" here) have gone to uni they can't be expected to pay for their living costs for the duration of their degree surely?
You believe it should what, sorry?
It might be ok if the current government could sort out all the unemployment and have more jobs available so students could help to fund their own way but that's not possible either.
To be fair, even if that were feasible to create that many jobs, students wouldn't be able to work enough hours to get a decent enough income to cover all their living costs.
I'd love to see what the governments intention is. They raise the tuition fees cap, and will thus have to raise their loans in the short term to cope with the demand of students attending university and give all an oppotunity to attend. If they don't they are going to have the unemployment stats shoot up to stupid levels and will have to pay for that too.
I see little point in Bursaries as well. Scholarships are different but what good do bursaries do?
I see little point in Bursaries as well. Scholarships are different but what good do bursaries do?
I agree, I don't understand bursaries at all.
By the way, I just thought I'd add your avatar is awesome. I don't know why.. it just is.
I've never really understood not wanting to help your own children (and yes, they are still your children no matter how old they are) assuming you're in a position where you can. It just ... doesn't make sense to me; I'd be happy if I had the money to make sure my family had a good life.
That said, I also don't agree with the expectation that all have to; why not make the entire amount available to everyone as a loan?
That said, I also don't agree with the expectation that all have to; why not make the entire amount available to everyone as a loan?
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by innerhollow
You believe it should what, sorry?
Apologies. I believe it shouldn't be based on parental income (my head is everywhere today)
To be fair, even if that were feasible to create that many jobs, students wouldn't be able to work enough hours to get a decent enough income to cover all their living costs.
But they could earn enough to put them in a better position than they would now...
By the way, I just thought I'd add your avatar is awesome. I don't know why.. it just is.
Thanks
Very few people are independent from their parents at the age of 18. Most people are at least somewhat reliant on their parents until their mid 20s (at LEAST - house prices are insane these days, a lot of people get support in their 40s for this) let alone when they are at uni.
In short, a lot of people (I'm not one of them, but hey I'm not a Tory) think that the state shouldn't be taking the role of parents unless those parents can't afford to help their kids. In other words, parents should take some responsibility for helping their kids rather than just relying on the state to do it. Its the same argument that people use against having a large welfare state: if the state starts taking responsibility for what is really someone else's responsibility, then very soon people start relying on the state entirely and then you end up with Vicky Pollards.
In short, a lot of people (I'm not one of them, but hey I'm not a Tory) think that the state shouldn't be taking the role of parents unless those parents can't afford to help their kids. In other words, parents should take some responsibility for helping their kids rather than just relying on the state to do it. Its the same argument that people use against having a large welfare state: if the state starts taking responsibility for what is really someone else's responsibility, then very soon people start relying on the state entirely and then you end up with Vicky Pollards.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by TheSownRose
I've never really understood not wanting to help your own children (and yes, they are still your children no matter how old they are) assuming you're in a position where you can. It just ... doesn't make sense to me; I'd be happy if I had the money to make sure my family had a good life.
Some parents just believe that once their children are adults and have left the house, they should be autonomous. And some children believe the same thing! I really wish I didn't need a single penny from my parents for uni but due to means-testing I'm only allowed 70% of the maximum maintenance loan, so I have had to ask my parents to make up the shortfall*
That said, I also don't agree with the expectation that all have to; why not make the entire amount available to everyone as a loan?
YES. YES.
... I agree with you
*(someone here is probably going to tell me to get a job during uni- I don't feel I could do a job and get a 1st in a very intensive engineering degree and do work experience and ECs to build my CV. I'm sure people have done it, but it's unreasonably difficult and we shouldn't HAVE TO work jobs in univeristy just to get by).
(edited 13 years ago)
Simply because in general, parents with a lot of money tend to help pay for their kids time at uni.
So many people I talked to while living on campus at uni said they choose the most expensive accommodation because their parents were paying for it.
Plus, if the student for whatever reason requires further financial help, richer parents can afford to help out their kids (even if the parents aren't helping with living costs normally). While poorer parents simply cannot afford to help them out t all.
So many people I talked to while living on campus at uni said they choose the most expensive accommodation because their parents were paying for it.
Plus, if the student for whatever reason requires further financial help, richer parents can afford to help out their kids (even if the parents aren't helping with living costs normally). While poorer parents simply cannot afford to help them out t all.
Original post by innerhollow
YES.
I'm not an expert about the system but from what I heard your new system makes much more sense than the old one
Original post by innerhollow
Some parents just believe that once their children are adults and have left the house, they should be autonomous. And some children believe the same thing! I really wish I didn't need a single penny from my parents for uni but I'm only allowed 70% of the maximum maintenance loan, so I have had to ask my parents to make up the shortfall*
*(someone here is probably going to tell me to get a job during uni- I don't feel I could do a job and get a 1st in a very intensive engineering degree and do work experience and ECs to build my CV. I'm sure people have done it, but it's unreasonably difficult)
*(someone here is probably going to tell me to get a job during uni- I don't feel I could do a job and get a 1st in a very intensive engineering degree and do work experience and ECs to build my CV. I'm sure people have done it, but it's unreasonably difficult)
I know they do believe that, but I don't really understand it; like I say, if I had a child and I was in a position to give them money so they can live in a good life and avoid a large debt, I'd be happy to be able to do so.
I agree with you that getting a job isn't going to work for every course or person - different people need to spend more time doing something, so saying, "I worked during my degree, therefore everyone doing this degree should be able to" isn't going to work. And, different courses just need different amounts of time spent on them.
YES. YES.
... I agree with you
... I agree with you
I'd like to see that in theory; sadly, the reality is that there is only so much money to go around, and the people who earn more are in a better position to support their children (whether they will or not is a different story), whilst those that don't earn much aren't able to even if they want to.
Original post by jacketpotato
Very few people are independent from their parents at the age of 18. Most people are at least somewhat reliant on their parents until their mid 20s (at LEAST - house prices are insane these days, a lot of people get support in their 40s for this) let alone when they are at uni.
In short, a lot of people (I'm not one of them, but hey I'm not a Tory) think that the state shouldn't be taking the role of parents unless those parents can't afford to help their kids. In other words, parents should take some responsibility for helping their kids rather than just relying on the state to do it. Its the same argument that people use against having a large welfare state: if the state starts taking responsibility for what is really someone else's responsibility, then very soon people start relying on the state entirely and then you end up with Vicky Pollards.
In short, a lot of people (I'm not one of them, but hey I'm not a Tory) think that the state shouldn't be taking the role of parents unless those parents can't afford to help their kids. In other words, parents should take some responsibility for helping their kids rather than just relying on the state to do it. Its the same argument that people use against having a large welfare state: if the state starts taking responsibility for what is really someone else's responsibility, then very soon people start relying on the state entirely and then you end up with Vicky Pollards.
I understand where you're coming from with regards to the nanny state, but your post is a bit of an is-ought fallacy don't you think?
Original post by WelshBluebird
Simply because in general, parents with a lot of money tend to help pay for their kids time at uni.
So many people I talked to while living on campus at uni said they choose the most expensive accommodation because their parents were paying for it.
Plus, if the student for whatever reason requires further financial help, richer parents can afford to help out their kids (even if the parents aren't helping with living costs normally). While poorer parents simply cannot afford to help them out t all.
So many people I talked to while living on campus at uni said they choose the most expensive accommodation because their parents were paying for it.
Plus, if the student for whatever reason requires further financial help, richer parents can afford to help out their kids (even if the parents aren't helping with living costs normally). While poorer parents simply cannot afford to help them out t all.
As I've said, in the current system, parents are EXPECTED to pay their children through uni as best as possible, so that's hardly surprising. 30% of the maintenace loan is means-tested. Of course under any system wealthy parents may try to give their children hand-outs, but why should that be expected of them?
Plus, what is going to happen to the children whose parents are wealthy but refuse to help them? They're basically screwed financially during uni. Also, students who come from higher-income households but actually want to pay their way through uni (i.e. myself) are not given the opportunity to do so. I don't feel I should be expected to ask my parents for money simply because they have money. I'll be an adult at uni, why can't I be given the opportunity to pay my own way through uni?
(edited 13 years ago)
I agree it's true that some parents will not help their children, however students who fall into the bracket where they get the full maintenance loan and full grant probably haven't got parents who can afford to help them out if they go stuck. I think the system should stay as it is, because those who have got parents who are willing to help them out should not get the same as those whose parents are not willing to help out/can't help out. HOWEVER, I do believe that those families who don't help out yet can afford to, their children should be allowed to get a loan so they get the same as a student on full maintenance loan and grant.
Original post by innerhollow
As I've said, in the current system, parents are EXPECTED to pay their children through uni as best as possible, so that's hardly surprising. 30% of the maintenace loan is means-tested.
Plus, what is going to happen to the children whose parents are wealthy but refuse to help them. Also, students who come from higher-income households but actually want to pay their way through uni (i.e. myself) are not given the opportunity to do so. I don't feel I should be expected to ask my parents for money simply because they have money. I'll be an adult at uni, why can't I be given the opportunity to pay my own way through uni?
As I've said, in the current system, parents are EXPECTED to pay their children through uni as best as possible, so that's hardly surprising. 30% of the maintenace loan is means-tested.
Plus, what is going to happen to the children whose parents are wealthy but refuse to help them. Also, students who come from higher-income households but actually want to pay their way through uni (i.e. myself) are not given the opportunity to do so. I don't feel I should be expected to ask my parents for money simply because they have money. I'll be an adult at uni, why can't I be given the opportunity to pay my own way through uni?
But changing the system to what you suggest will mean that students who have poorer parents will be at disadvantage, as rich parents will still pay for accommodation costs and the like. I realise that not all parents will, but in general they do.
I think the current system is a decent compromise tbh.
Original post by SpiritedAway
I agree it's true that some parents will not help their children, however students who fall into the bracket where they get the full maintenance loan and full grant probably haven't got parents who can afford to help them out if they go stuck. I think the system should stay as it is, because those who have got parents who are willing to help them out should not get the same as those whose parents are not willing to help out/can't help out. HOWEVER, I do believe that those families who don't help out yet can afford to, their children should be allowed to get a loan so they get the same as a student on full maintenance loan and grant.
I don't agree with the maintenace grant actually... I think if the government could rid of grants they would be more able to afford to give everyone fully repayable loans.
Apart from that me and my parents would both agree on the bolded point actually... the problem is how do you moderate that?
Original post by innerhollow
Could someone explain this to me? I don't understand why, once you've left your parents house and are an adult, the maintenance loans you receive at uni are partly decided by your parents' income.
Such a policy is basically forcing people with higher-income parents to be reliant on parental handouts. Not all children want that, and not all parents are willing to provide the financial support to their grown children that the government expects them to. Either the children with higher-income parents are forced to get money from their parents, or they struggle hugely with university. I don't feel that is the best system.
Since everyone has similar living costs, shouldn't the maintenance loan just be one, non-means tested amount, enough to cover expected living costs, for everyone which everyone pays back? Of course some wealthy parents might give their children hand-outs anyway, but we shouldn't instead have a system where they are almost OBLIGED to give these handouts, surely? Isn't one loan for everyone the fairest solution?
Such a policy is basically forcing people with higher-income parents to be reliant on parental handouts. Not all children want that, and not all parents are willing to provide the financial support to their grown children that the government expects them to. Either the children with higher-income parents are forced to get money from their parents, or they struggle hugely with university. I don't feel that is the best system.
Since everyone has similar living costs, shouldn't the maintenance loan just be one, non-means tested amount, enough to cover expected living costs, for everyone which everyone pays back? Of course some wealthy parents might give their children hand-outs anyway, but we shouldn't instead have a system where they are almost OBLIGED to give these handouts, surely? Isn't one loan for everyone the fairest solution?
Have you read the Browne report? They're changing it to a non means tested loan for that very reason (£3,750 if I remember correctly). There will still be bursaries though.
edit:
Support for living costs available to all through an
annual loan of £3,750. No means testing for access
to loans for living costs.
• Additional support for students from families with
an income below £60,000 per year, up to £3,250
in grants
annual loan of £3,750. No means testing for access
to loans for living costs.
• Additional support for students from families with
an income below £60,000 per year, up to £3,250
in grants
(edited 13 years ago)
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