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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV
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Original post by Marco1
Good question. I know Hamas has their own underground networks but why haven't the Palestinians planned ahead. Bomb shelters surely would be an obvious safety precaution for its people.
Hamas even have an underground command bunker which it situated under a hospital. That isn't even using a human shield, that is using a human wall.
I couldn't find any statistics around this subject as I don't actually think there are any shelters at all. For a country well known for being bombed it really would make some sense to at least try and defend yourself through non-aggressive means.
No doubt if they did, the "evil Hamas" would then be using them to "store all their weapons" so they would simply use bunker busters to destroy the shelters.
The idea is that schools and hospitals should NOT be bombed under humanitarian law, the Israelis can destroy these, and could destroy bomb shelters with equal ease if they wanted to.
The idea is that schools and hospitals should NOT be bombed under humanitarian law, the Israelis can destroy these, and could destroy bomb shelters with equal ease if they wanted to.
They spent it all on building tunnels into Israel.
Original post by Sic semper erat
Gaza is not occupied by Israel no matter how much you'd like to think and say so. Israel withdrew completely to the 1967 lines and its now ruled by Hamas. "Occupied population" wow, the first occupied population in history that doesnt have a single foreign solider on its territory, amazing how much BS you guys can come up with. An "occupied population" that has its own government too, lol
Its own government that is considered a 'terrorist organisation' by Israel and subsequently much of the Western world, how conveniently you overlook that when it suits you. Where is the 'GDF', the 'Gazan Defence Forces'? Oh right, they're terrorists, they're not allowed to have any 'Defence Forces'.
You are attempting to portray Gaza as though it is a sovereign state in today's world, which is certainly is not.
Gaza may not be occupied in the conventional sense of the word, but the Gazan people are occupied by Israel in that whatever happens to them happens with Israel's will. When Israel pulled out of Gaza Israeli soldiers merely stationed themselves all around it. Israel controls what goes in and what goes out of Gaza. Gaza is under a blockade. Gaza is not the normal, sovereign state that people had envisaged it would become in 2005 when Israel pulled out, and that you are pathetically attempting to portray it as.
Original post by Sic semper erat
Have you ever heard of the Oslo Accords? Arafat and Rabin agreed that 60% of the West Bank is to remain under Israeli military and civil control (until a final agreement is sorted out) while the rest is ruled under the newly formed Palestinian Authority.
As for why theyre there in the first place maybe its because Jordan started shelling western Jerusalem to help Nasser invade Israel in the 1967 war. By the end of the war the UN security council decided that Israel is to keep the territories (the exact wording was 'no Israeli withdrawal') and only return the territories in return for peace and security. And funnily enough "the Palestinians" aren't even mentioned in Res. 242 as such an identity didnt exist prior to the 70s.
No peace with Israel? no security arrangements? Israel is not obliged to give a single inch of land. And after Gaza turned into a launching pad for rockets after Israel's unilateral withdrawal I don't think the Israelis would be foolish to withdraw from the West Bank and create 20 more Gazas.
Its settled and will continue to be settled.
As for why theyre there in the first place maybe its because Jordan started shelling western Jerusalem to help Nasser invade Israel in the 1967 war. By the end of the war the UN security council decided that Israel is to keep the territories (the exact wording was 'no Israeli withdrawal') and only return the territories in return for peace and security. And funnily enough "the Palestinians" aren't even mentioned in Res. 242 as such an identity didnt exist prior to the 70s.
No peace with Israel? no security arrangements? Israel is not obliged to give a single inch of land. And after Gaza turned into a launching pad for rockets after Israel's unilateral withdrawal I don't think the Israelis would be foolish to withdraw from the West Bank and create 20 more Gazas.
Its settled and will continue to be settled.
Have you heard of the Oslo Accords? That they have long ceased to be of any relevance? That all sides have acknowledged them to be part of history now and nothing more?
And anyway, what you say about their implications is extremely inaccurate: the Israelis were supposed to withdraw from the regions of the West Bank which were under Israeli control slowly but surely, they were certainly not to stay put there 'until final agreements were sorted out', whatever that means.
The West Bank is currently under illegal Israeli occupation under international law. Settlements under international law are illegal. You're a new specimen of Zionist apologist who, instead of ignoring altogether Israel's breaches, have the chutzpah to pretend that there are none; that there is no occupation of the West Bank, that there is nothing illegal, not to say direly immoral, about demolishing Palestinian homes there to set up new ones for foreigners who have no claim to the land whatever, when even current international law, with all its flaws, acknowledges that all of that is unacceptable.
And there we go again, denying that Palestine and Palestinians every existed as such.
What's funny is that you ignore everything about the UN and how it was set up and at what time and with what intention. Palestinians aren't mentioned in the UN's earlier resolutions because the UN was set up with the express intention of wiping out any trace of their ever having been any such entity as a 'Palestinian' or any such region as 'Palestine' and to establish the 'state of Israel'. Palestine and Palestinians have existed prior to 1970 and prior to that as well, on maps and in reality respectively.
Original post by Sic semper erat
A land acknowledged by virtually everyone as desolate, filled with malaria.
Yes, it is known that Palestine was described as an 'infested swampland' by the people who facilitated the creation of the state of Israel, thanks for letting us know that there are still ignoramuses about who readily favour the oppressor's, the occupier's, the mercenary foreigner's version of events regarding things over the oppressed, quieted, dehumanised local's.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Pinzgauer
LOL!!
Do you really have to ask that? they've built a whole city under Gaza made up of tunnel networks to kill Israelis. The tunnels are cement lined with sewage systems to allow for long stays.
Yet not a single bunker for the civilians.
The Hamas leadership have a bunker under a hospital in Gaza. No civilians allowed
They are the most despicable of low life imaginable and they use their dead civilians as their main weapon in the battle for public opinion.
And the useful idiots out marching against Israel, perpetuate this because it's exactly what Hamas is seeking.
Do you really have to ask that? they've built a whole city under Gaza made up of tunnel networks to kill Israelis. The tunnels are cement lined with sewage systems to allow for long stays.
Yet not a single bunker for the civilians.
The Hamas leadership have a bunker under a hospital in Gaza. No civilians allowed
They are the most despicable of low life imaginable and they use their dead civilians as their main weapon in the battle for public opinion.
And the useful idiots out marching against Israel, perpetuate this because it's exactly what Hamas is seeking.
Even if that's all true, Israel seem to be remarkably good at joining in and being manipulated. Let's say the Hamas plan this time round was to cause enough Israeli retaliation and brutality that the Arab Street would get into a fine old lather and possibly destabilise Egypt again. If so, they seem to be doing well with it so far - riots are spreading in many Islamic countries already. Israel seem to be very happy to join the party.
as other posters have said, Hamas wont build shelters because they have their tunnels. And also, using schools and UN aid stations as cover is highly convenient for them as it leads to more slander against Israel
Original post by ssingh9
I tend not to get involved in these kind of debates, but I love how anyone who wants to find out more or is even remotely looking like they're considering putting themselves in Israel's mindset for a second is shot down as a troll, anti-Muslim, etc. Is it not wiser to consider evidence and make reasoned arguments than blurting out stuff like "Stop bull****ting"? Forcing your opinion on others who haven't done the research to consider it critically is morally bankrupt.
I'm afraid you won't find much intellect or debate amongst the majority of anti-Israelis.
They either respond as you've described, or reply with 5 or 6 words of hyperbole which seems to have evolved into an almost instinctive reflex response - "genocide", "apartheid", "targeting women and children" etc.
There's no debating with these people.
And it's actually quite a reflection on the conflict itself. Because there you have a liberal democracy with an open press and freedom of religion, gay rights, women's rights trying to engage an opponent that covets none of these things and simply retorts that they would like to kill them all.
It's very difficult to discuss with them.
Original post by Huskaris
No doubt if they did, the "evil Hamas" would then be using them to "store all their weapons" so they would simply use bunker busters to destroy the shelters.
The idea is that schools and hospitals should NOT be bombed under humanitarian law, the Israelis can destroy these, and could destroy bomb shelters with equal ease if they wanted to.
The idea is that schools and hospitals should NOT be bombed under humanitarian law, the Israelis can destroy these, and could destroy bomb shelters with equal ease if they wanted to.
Hamas has managed in all its wisdom to have a rocket misfire and hit a hospital. It sounds pretty deliberate to try and escalate the situation. I don't understand why to Palestinians put up with Hamas.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Even if that's all true, Israel seem to be remarkably good at joining in and being manipulated. Let's say the Hamas plan this time round was to cause enough Israeli retaliation and brutality that the Arab Street would get into a fine old lather and possibly destabilise Egypt again. If so, they seem to be doing well with it so far - riots are spreading in many Islamic countries already. Israel seem to be very happy to join the party.
Well, Israel is in a difficult position. They either sit back and allow thousands of rockets and dozens of tunnels into Israel and suffer inevitable casualties or respond.
I mean just think about terrorists tunnelling into the UK. Look what they have done around the world when given a chance to hit civilians. The Kenyan shopping mall, the Indian hotel, Beslan school massacre, Boko Haram etc.
Just imagine these types popping up from under the earth into your village and slaughtering the occupants.
It's madness that people think Israel can do anything other than what it's doing now.
Original post by DiddyDec
Hamas has managed in all its wisdom to have a rocket misfire and hit a hospital. It sounds pretty deliberate to try and escalate the situation. I don't understand why to Palestinians put up with Hamas.
Well, they voted for them.
If there is any dissent now, it's not tolerated.
palestinain media reported at least 30 palestinians killed by Hamas in recent days for voicing displeasure.
Obviously Israel will get the blame for those 30 dead.
Original post by pane123
At least I am willing to see fault in both sides. You, on the other hand, seem to be oblivious to any wrongdoing on the part of Hamas.
In fact, I'm not sure I've come across someone so blinkered on TSR before. Are you Muslim by any chance? I find your defence of Hamas somewhat bizarre.
In fact, I'm not sure I've come across someone so blinkered on TSR before. Are you Muslim by any chance? I find your defence of Hamas somewhat bizarre.
I've mentioned that Hamas is anything but perfect. I'm doing exactly what you're doing, which is assessing which side is the lesser of two evils, or more importantly which side is the aggressor and which side is forced to defend it's territory. I'm not Muslim or affiliated with the region in any way
Original post by Pinzgauer
Well, Israel is in a difficult position. They either sit back and allow thousands of rockets and dozens of tunnels into Israel and suffer inevitable casualties or respond.
I mean just think about terrorists tunnelling into the UK. Look what they have done around the world when given a chance to hit civilians. The Kenyan shopping mall, the Indian hotel, Beslan school massacre, Boko Haram etc.
Just imagine these types popping up from under the earth into your village and slaughtering the occupants.
It's madness that people think Israel can do anything other than what it's doing now.
I mean just think about terrorists tunnelling into the UK. Look what they have done around the world when given a chance to hit civilians. The Kenyan shopping mall, the Indian hotel, Beslan school massacre, Boko Haram etc.
Just imagine these types popping up from under the earth into your village and slaughtering the occupants.
It's madness that people think Israel can do anything other than what it's doing now.
You're ignoring the bigger picture. Hamas represent the people of Gaza because Gaza has been treated like a prison camp and repeatedly denied access to the most basic quality of life. At the same time, despite talk of a long-term settlement or of peace, Israel continues to expand settlements into Palestinian territory elsewhere. The overall thrust of Israel's policy can convincingly appear to be the total elimination of the means of survival of the Palestinian people, or at least, something akin to imprisoning them in tiny reservations. Yes, Palestinians are behaving callously, but given what they've been up against, it isn't that surprising.
Also you ignore the profound disequality of arms. Israel is like an elephant swatting at gnats. Palestinian counter-strikes are like the desperate charges of native American warriors armed with bows and arrows against the cannons of the US cavalry.
To me, the images of brutal, thuggish Israeli youth celebrating in the streets at the latest horrors says it all really. I think we're seeing the collapse of a once-civilised country into a permanent machine of oppression. I assume large profits are being made by the Israeli armaments manufacturers from all this. They will be at the big arms fairs later this year, extolling their 'battlefield tested' weapons. (Yes, this really is part of their sales pitch.)
Plenty of reasons they don't build bomb shelters.
For these scum, death is essentially an industry. The more civilians die then the better it is as it generates foreign sympathy especially from the liberal Western countries. Hamas is essentially a thug ring that uses suicide and people sacrifices as their weapon of terror. Quite a lot also die from rocket launching which are also fired from civilian areas too.
There are over 400 underground tunnels in Gaza, many of them are as well built as those which the London Underground operates in. These are perfectly suitable as a bomb shelter as proven during the Blitz of WW2. Many are built under and accessed from very civilian purpose infrastructure such as schools, clinics, mosques and even the UN buildings. These tunnels are quite similar to the Chu Chi network found in Vietnam at the height of the Vietnam War. However no civilians other than Hamas fighters are allowed inside these tunnels as they are generally used for supplies and where ammunition are produced.
There are actually many bunkers in Gaza too, there is one under the main hospital that houses the Hamas command and control centre. Many of these bunkers are very deep into the ground and you need some of the best bunker busting bombs to destroy them as many are better built than some of the best bunkers Britain ever built for WW2. Many of these bunkers can be used as bomb shelters but instead they house machinery to create shells.
Its good that Israel has finally awakened to the reality that no matter what concessions they give these groups won't stop fighting till the day there is no longer the state of Israel. One thing for sure until every single one of those bunkers are destroyed and the tunnels removed this campaign won't come to an end.
For these scum, death is essentially an industry. The more civilians die then the better it is as it generates foreign sympathy especially from the liberal Western countries. Hamas is essentially a thug ring that uses suicide and people sacrifices as their weapon of terror. Quite a lot also die from rocket launching which are also fired from civilian areas too.
There are over 400 underground tunnels in Gaza, many of them are as well built as those which the London Underground operates in. These are perfectly suitable as a bomb shelter as proven during the Blitz of WW2. Many are built under and accessed from very civilian purpose infrastructure such as schools, clinics, mosques and even the UN buildings. These tunnels are quite similar to the Chu Chi network found in Vietnam at the height of the Vietnam War. However no civilians other than Hamas fighters are allowed inside these tunnels as they are generally used for supplies and where ammunition are produced.
There are actually many bunkers in Gaza too, there is one under the main hospital that houses the Hamas command and control centre. Many of these bunkers are very deep into the ground and you need some of the best bunker busting bombs to destroy them as many are better built than some of the best bunkers Britain ever built for WW2. Many of these bunkers can be used as bomb shelters but instead they house machinery to create shells.
Its good that Israel has finally awakened to the reality that no matter what concessions they give these groups won't stop fighting till the day there is no longer the state of Israel. One thing for sure until every single one of those bunkers are destroyed and the tunnels removed this campaign won't come to an end.
Original post by miavdbt
See above. Their closest ally hasn't turned on them.
Above where?
There is nothing "above"...
Original post by DiddyDec
Hamas has managed in all its wisdom to have a rocket misfire and hit a hospital. It sounds pretty deliberate to try and escalate the situation. I don't understand why to Palestinians put up with Hamas.
The problem with discussing what you have just said, is that, in my opinion, people who support Israel do so dogmatically, and are often what I would describe as extremists. I find that people who support Israel often offer their unconditional support, and when you offer a government unconditional support, they will commit unspeakable acts in your name.
This for me, is where the problem in Israel stems from, a lack of pressure from Israelis, due to a culture of fear, and a lack of pressure from international sources, due to fear of being called an anti-semite, and while these two issues remain, the Palestinians are doomed.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Alfissti
Its good that Israel has finally awakened to the reality that no matter what concessions they give these groups won't stop fighting till the day there is no longer the state of Israel. One thing for sure until every single one of those bunkers are destroyed and the tunnels removed this campaign won't come to an end.
Its good that Israel has finally awakened to the reality that no matter what concessions they give these groups won't stop fighting till the day there is no longer the state of Israel. One thing for sure until every single one of those bunkers are destroyed and the tunnels removed this campaign won't come to an end.
It's part of the grotesque distortion of reality in the Israeli mindset that you could take the idea seriously that somehow Hamas can destroy the mighty state of Israel. Hurt a few of your people, yes. Destroy you? Come on. We don't believe this fantasy, so you are wasting your time repeating it here.
The trouble is, that no matter how strongly you hold these views, to the rest of us the situation increasingly looks like a murderous, mighty Israeli state raining death on helpless victims. They may be victimised by Hamas (and I'm sure there's truth in that), but they are still pitiful.
As no human feelings appear to penetrate in Israel any more, I'm afraid the rest of us are going to have to change tack and stop supporting Israel without criticism or a stronger focus on what you get up to. For one thing, we need to stop your arms industry from flogging abroad, which is a big driver behind these campaigns. For another, we need to apply sanctions, including stopping your citizens coming here for your hols or to sell.
Original post by Huskaris
The problem with discussing what you have just said, is that, in my opinion, people who support Israel do so dogmatically, and are often what I would describe as extremists..
Yeah, because it's pro-Israeli supporters that are rampaging across Europe burning cars, smashing shop windows and assaulting police.
Original post by Meenglishnogood
newsflash- i dont think the world is convinced either...
As I have already said, you are insignificant in the grander scheme of things.
so now jumping from pedantry to childishness are you now? - you know full well in the above comment "they" referred to Hamas as we were talking bout them all along
Your post did not make it clear.
As it stands, you believe the Jews to be terrorists.
Your words, not mine and I shall often repeat it in my discussions with you.
no they dont, they can just defeat the arabs (which they did in 1948, 67 and 73) etc. in your mind arabs won the land fair and square in war, so why dont you then congratulate israel for doing so too now seeing as you like war so much? is it becuase they didnt kill as many people as the arabs did when they conquered peoples land
The Arabs won via military conquest. They didn't win via mass illegal immigration and then demanding their own state.
so you feel that israel are right to rule the region, you are just against their methods of 'conquest' because its not bloody enough - yes we get it now.
If they had won it through military conquest instead of mass illegal immigration, then that would be a fair comment.
the crux of your whole level of discourse toward israel and jews in general - they werent as bloody in the
acquisition of land as the arabs were.
acquisition of land as the arabs were.
I just find it sick that you would abuse the hospitality of those who have initially welcomed you.
wuh? please try to make sense.
Maybe you just don't understand, eh?
Original post by Huskaris
The problem with discussing what you have just said, is that, in my opinion, people who support Israel do so dogmatically, and are often what I would describe as extremists. I find that people who support Israel often offer their unconditional support, and when you offer a government unconditional support, they will commit unspeakable acts in your name.
This for me, is where the problem in Israel stems from, a lack of pressure from Israelis, due to a culture of fear, and a lack of pressure from international sources, due to fear of being called an anti-semite, and while these two issues remain, the Palestinians are doomed.
This for me, is where the problem in Israel stems from, a lack of pressure from Israelis, due to a culture of fear, and a lack of pressure from international sources, due to fear of being called an anti-semite, and while these two issues remain, the Palestinians are doomed.
I think both sides need to step back and actually deal with the situation without violence. Once a cease fire is in place the higher ups can at least start negotiating deals.
It is in the best interest of Israel to end the fighting because it is a PR nightmare. And obviously it is the same for Gaza, they are lost thousands of innocents.
There seems to be too many people just siding with one or the other out of principal. No matter what acts each side do, they will not change their view. Both sides are as bad as each other really.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's part of the grotesque distortion of reality in the Israeli mindset that you could take the idea seriously that somehow Hamas can destroy the mighty state of Israel. Hurt a few of your people, yes. Destroy you? Come on. We don't believe this fantasy, so you are wasting your time repeating it here.
The trouble is, that no matter how strongly you hold these views, to the rest of us the situation increasingly looks like a murderous, mighty Israeli state raining death on helpless victims. They may be victimised by Hamas (and I'm sure there's truth in that), but they are still pitiful.
As no human feelings appear to penetrate in Israel any more, I'm afraid the rest of us are going to have to change tack and stop supporting Israel without criticism or a stronger focus on what you get up to. For one thing, we need to stop your arms industry from flogging abroad, which is a big driver behind these campaigns. For another, we need to apply sanctions, including stopping your citizens coming here for your hols or to sell.
The trouble is, that no matter how strongly you hold these views, to the rest of us the situation increasingly looks like a murderous, mighty Israeli state raining death on helpless victims. They may be victimised by Hamas (and I'm sure there's truth in that), but they are still pitiful.
As no human feelings appear to penetrate in Israel any more, I'm afraid the rest of us are going to have to change tack and stop supporting Israel without criticism or a stronger focus on what you get up to. For one thing, we need to stop your arms industry from flogging abroad, which is a big driver behind these campaigns. For another, we need to apply sanctions, including stopping your citizens coming here for your hols or to sell.
You do realize this current campaign is costing Israel LOTS of money right? Seen how Greece has come to ruin due to debt? Been to Spain lately?
Each time an Iron Dome is put to action for a single rocket intercept US$40k goes up in smoke.
You can call Israel anything but them doing nothing is just not an option.
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