New opposition plan to legislate on Brexit

Original post by Jammy Duel

You were saying?

Those "adults" are currently trying to create a constitutional crisis in a desperate attempt to overrule the electorate

Are you familiar with the term Representative democracy? There is a good reason the hoi polloi arent generally consulted on matters of national significance.

Reply 42

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I know there's an element of humor in your second sentence, but just to point out, the issue is hard Brexit, which was never voted for, or proposed in the referendum. That's what MPs are opposing, not Brexit as such.

While my comment was humorous i hope yours is too.

We both know that if remainers really believed what they say the peoples vote would be proposing Norway rather than Remain.

Reply 43

Tawheed

A compelling case can be made that the majority of voters didn't really know what they were voting for, either leave or remain. It is quite clear that public sentiment has shifted, far more of us are now informed, and the outcome of a second referendum would be to remain, and i predict by a good margin (more than Leave won), which is precisely why they don't want another vote.

To those who claim a vote has already happened, i would argue that isn't factually the case. If a Brexit deal can be brought to parliament again and again on a vote, at the heart of our democracy, and yet again can be presented after amendments, why can't the same apply for a people's vote?

The terms are now different:

1. No deal OR a very clear and specific deal negotiated by Johnson's government

OR

2. Remain

These terms are far clearer than the original ones we voted on in 2016.

I voted Brexit, partly because of the reasons Corbyn himself noted when he spoke out against the EU, and there are some decent arguments one can present from the left. However, while the EU certainly has a lot wrong with it, leaving it without a deal will tank us.

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 44

Napp

Original post by Rakas21

We both know that if remainers really believed what they say the peoples vote would be proposing Norway rather than Remain.

Why exactly..?

Reply 45

Tawheed

Original post by Rakas21

While my comment was humorous i hope yours is too.

We both know that if remainers really believed what they say the peoples vote would be proposing Norway rather than Remain.

I voted Brexit, and i did so terribly misinformed and far more informed than most who voted for it. In fact, probably more informed than most who voted leave or remain i'd suspect, and i was still terribly informed.

What do you fear about a vote of a more clear deal/ no-deal verses remain?

Reply 46

Original post by Tawheed

I voted Brexit, and i did so terribly misinformed and far more informed than most who voted for it. In fact, probably more informed than most who voted leave or remain i'd suspect, and i was still terribly informed.

What do you fear about a vote of a more clear deal/ no-deal verses remain?

I voted Brexit and actually read the Treasury and IMF reports issued during the campaign, so was certainly more informed than 90% of Remainers. That some were ill informed is not my problem, it is the price of democracy,

With regards to your second question I never wanted the referendum to begin with, it was apparent from the Scottish referendum the division that an EU referendum could cause. I believe in representative democracy, not direct democracy. Secondly, we already chose between leaving and remaining, the only legitimate referendum that would honour the first would be a defined deal vs a defined No Deal. Thirdly though, as things stand I am going to get the outcome I want. You don’t argue for a do over when you are winning,

All the above being said though, I do believe that parliament will put Boris into a position where he calls an election. Thus we will get our ‘peoples vote’ and vote for the party supporting our respective preferences.

Reply 47

navarre

The only ways I see out of the current mess are that of a second referendum where Remain has to be on the ballot, or No Deal, which would probably hit the economy but would hopefully sort this farce once and for all and allow our politicians to get on with the important but boring task of running the country.

Reply 48

Wired_1800

Original post by Tawheed

A compelling case can be made that the majority of voters didn't really know what they were voting for, either leave or remain. It is quite clear that public sentiment has shifted, far more of us are now informed, and the outcome of a second referendum would be to remain, and i predict by a good margin (more than Leave won), which is precisely why they don't want another vote.

To those who claim a vote has already happened, i would argue that isn't factually the case. If a Brexit deal can be brought to parliament again and again on a vote, at the heart of our democracy, and yet again can be presented after amendments, why can't the same apply for a people's vote?

The terms are now different:

1. No deal OR a very clear and specific deal negotiated by Johnson's government

OR

2. Remain

These terms are far clearer than the original ones we voted on in 2016.

I voted Brexit, partly because of the reasons Corbyn himself noted when he spoke out against the EU, and there are some decent arguments one can present from the left. However, while the EU certainly has a lot wrong with it, leaving it without a deal will tank us.

This is silly. Why should the people have to vote to remain when they said they want to leave? The terms on another ballot should be to leave with No Deal or leave with a negotiated Deal.

Reply 49

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Qfa

Original post by nulli tertius

Qfa

The trap has been laid seemingly. The government has confirmed that Tory MP’s who vote against them tomorrow will be deselected making it a de facto confidence vote.

If the opposition are not so incompetent that their bill does not pass the Commons (can never rule that out with the current opposition) then there are rumours that an election will be called within 72 hours.

That would put us on the timetable for Thursday 17th.

Reply 50

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Rakas21

The trap has been laid seemingly. The government has confirmed that Tory MP’s who vote against them tomorrow will be deselected making it a de facto confidence vote.

If the opposition are not so incompetent that their bill does not pass the Commons (can never rule that out with the current opposition) then there are rumours that an election will be called within 72 hours.

That would put us on the timetable for Thursday 17th.

I wonder how much bluster and empty threat there is in the mass deselection concept - when you think that the majority of Tory MPs voted for Theresa May's Withdrawal bill each and every time it was put forward, that must mean that chopping the heads off people they may well see as on their side of the argument is not very plausible. Also, most Tory associations that select candidates are very independent minded and it isn't plausible that all of them are now controlled by ex-kippers or will just jump when Boris orders them to.

The real question ahead now is will Labour actually support, when push comes to shove, a general election when they are far behind the polls. Blocking such an election would give them more time to push Corbyn to go, or at least (they might hope) to further their appeal to the electorate. This debate happened inside the Labour leadership when Mrs May called her snap election and in the end it was Corbyn who let it go through - he might not have the command of his own MPs to do that now. It is a long time since many of them paid any attention to what he says.

Reply 51

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I wonder how much bluster and empty threat there is in the mass deselection concept - when you think that the majority of Tory MPs voted for Theresa May's Withdrawal bill each and every time it was put forward, that must mean that chopping the heads off people they may well see as on their side of the argument is not very plausible. Also, most Tory associations that select candidates are very independent minded and it isn't plausible that all of them are now controlled by ex-kippers or will just jump when Boris orders them to.

The real question ahead now is will Labour actually support, when push comes to shove, a general election when they are far behind the polls. Blocking such an election would give them more time to push Corbyn to go, or at least (they might hope) to further their appeal to the electorate. This debate happened inside the Labour leadership when Mrs May called her snap election and in the end it was Corbyn who let it go through - he might not have the command of his own MPs to do that now. It is a long time since many of them paid any attention to what he says.

All good points but it would be absolutely incredible for a party to defy a leader who instructs them to try remove a Tory government.

Tory HQ has a lot of power over associations.

Reply 52

Notoriety

Feckless pricks couldn't arrange for a shag in a brothel.

Reply 53

Notoriety

Original post by Rakas21

I voted Brexit and actually read the Treasury and IMF reports issued during the campaign, so was certainly more informed than 90% of Remainers. That some were ill informed is not my problem, it is the price of democracy,

Are you a trained economist? Did you understand them?

Reply 54

BlueIndigoViolet

19

Brexit, the season 5 finale looks very interesting.

Reply 55

Original post by Notoriety

Are you a trained economist? Did you understand them?

I am an Economics grad although to be honest for most government reports a decent understanding of statistical analysis and ability to read is all that is required. Most government reports are easy enough to read because the press needs to be able to report on them.

Reply 56

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Rakas21

That would put us on the timetable for Thursday 17th.

I originally proposed it would be on the 17th, Cummings must be reading this thread. :teehee:

I'm a bit puzzled that the consensus now is that they want it on Monday 14th - damned funny business having a General on a Monday. Is this another example of Dominic's war-planning? A media blitz over the previous weekend perhaps, showing images of Boris and Carrie frolicking through Camberwell with their little doggie?

Reply 57

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I originally proposed it would be on the 17th, Cummings must be reading this thread. :teehee:

I'm a bit puzzled that the consensus now is that they want it on Monday 14th - damned funny business having a General on a Monday. Is this another example of Dominic's war-planning? A media blitz over the previous weekend perhaps, showing images of Boris and Carrie frolicking through Camberwell with their little doggie?

The 14th is I think the earliest day possible at 5 weeks, 4 days so I guess they want to go quick.

I’d prefer sticking to convention personally and going on the Thursday. Just extend the EU summit into the Saturday.

Reply 58

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Rakas21

The 14th is I think the earliest day possible at 5 weeks, 4 days so I guess they want to go quick.

I’d prefer sticking to convention personally and going on the Thursday. Just extend the EU summit into the Saturday.

Can't help being suspicious that it's just disinformation and when the election is announced, Boris will set it for after the 31st.

Reply 59