Benefits vs Working Analysis
This may be controversial and in no way am I blaming those that are on low income or in need of benefits instead I am blaming the wider system that doesn't make much sense.
Am I correct in this analysis?
The current maximum amount that a person can take home in benefits as a single adult is £18,500 a year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/benefit-cap-successfully-in-place-nationwide
Correct?
So we have max child benefit, max housing benefit, jobseekers allowance and so on, of course this is an extreme example. Lets say this person lives in the south of the country meaning high housing benefit cost probably taking much of the £18,500 a year needed to survive.
Let us also agree that this £18,500 is probably the bare minimum agreed by the government that you need to JUST SURVIVE.
So you are getting £18,500 a year.
Now let us compare this with earning £40,000 a year down south. This in my opinion is a very good wage. Not many people earn this, you are probably a manager, engineer or in a highly skilled profession.
I have using tax calculator http://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/
Net earnings of £27,890.61
I ticked off student loan and that is it. I am not even making pension contributions.
Now already we have agreed that £18200 is needed to survive in this place.
This leaves a difference of £9690 a year.
Although I would argue you should take away another £1,000 minimum for car, fuel and/or railway season tickets if you need to commute to your workplace.
So for all the stresses of having a £40,000 a year job. All the training. All those certifications you had to take for example the LPC in law, the ACCA for accounting or maybe the highly technical CISSP for IT security.
All the extra hours, all the politics and trying to please your boss, slaving away to make your CEO rich.
Losing your health and your mind glued to a desk.
It is all worth an additional £186.34 a week over the bare minimum needed to survive in the UK.
To be earning 40k a year you WILL BE WORKING 60+ Hours a week.
You are making £3.1 an hour at 60 hours a week. (If you are a good worker and do all the overtime that your boss asks of you)
£4.65 at 40 hours a week. (If you are a bad lazy worker who will be fired out of his 40k a year job even though these are the hours you are contracted to do).
In conclusion:
Your heart attack at 45 is worth an additional £3.10-£4.65 an hour over doing nothing.
This is not a daily mail blame the poor post. I know those on benefits are not the problem most of them do want to work. I am just trying to highlight how the middle classes are being bled dry.
Am I correct in this analysis?
The current maximum amount that a person can take home in benefits as a single adult is £18,500 a year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/benefit-cap-successfully-in-place-nationwide
Correct?
So we have max child benefit, max housing benefit, jobseekers allowance and so on, of course this is an extreme example. Lets say this person lives in the south of the country meaning high housing benefit cost probably taking much of the £18,500 a year needed to survive.
Let us also agree that this £18,500 is probably the bare minimum agreed by the government that you need to JUST SURVIVE.
So you are getting £18,500 a year.
Now let us compare this with earning £40,000 a year down south. This in my opinion is a very good wage. Not many people earn this, you are probably a manager, engineer or in a highly skilled profession.
I have using tax calculator http://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/
Net earnings of £27,890.61
I ticked off student loan and that is it. I am not even making pension contributions.
Now already we have agreed that £18200 is needed to survive in this place.
This leaves a difference of £9690 a year.
Although I would argue you should take away another £1,000 minimum for car, fuel and/or railway season tickets if you need to commute to your workplace.
So for all the stresses of having a £40,000 a year job. All the training. All those certifications you had to take for example the LPC in law, the ACCA for accounting or maybe the highly technical CISSP for IT security.
All the extra hours, all the politics and trying to please your boss, slaving away to make your CEO rich.
Losing your health and your mind glued to a desk.
It is all worth an additional £186.34 a week over the bare minimum needed to survive in the UK.
To be earning 40k a year you WILL BE WORKING 60+ Hours a week.
You are making £3.1 an hour at 60 hours a week. (If you are a good worker and do all the overtime that your boss asks of you)
£4.65 at 40 hours a week. (If you are a bad lazy worker who will be fired out of his 40k a year job even though these are the hours you are contracted to do).
In conclusion:
Your heart attack at 45 is worth an additional £3.10-£4.65 an hour over doing nothing.
This is not a daily mail blame the poor post. I know those on benefits are not the problem most of them do want to work. I am just trying to highlight how the middle classes are being bled dry.
I believe in the benefits system, but you've highlighted a serious point here. I think is prefer to see benefits reduce over time so people don't get used to it.
Original post by lostinavortex
The current maximum amount that a person can take home in benefits as a single adult is £18,500 a year.
The current maximum amount that a person can take home in benefits as a single adult is £18,500 a year.
Yes, maximum.
So we have max child benefit, max housing benefit, jobseekers allowance and so on, of course this is an extreme example. Lets say this person lives in the south of the country meaning high housing benefit cost probably taking much of the £18,500 a year needed to survive.
It is a bit unfair including child benefit, considering historically it's been a universal benefit and, even after recent changes, can still be claimed by a single person earning 40k. So remove child benefit.
Even with maximum housing benefit/local housing allowance, jobseekers allowance and council tax benefit someone is unlikely to receive more than 15k. I currently receive what amounts to under 15k a year in benefits, and I probably receive more than the average given that I claim Disability Living Allowance (which brings additional premiums for income related benefits such as JSA). I do work, by the way.
Admittedly there are free prescriptions, NHS dental treatment and eye tests on top of this, but this is unlikely to be worth 1k a year, let alone 3k.
Not only that, but those who are on long-term income related benefits often live in poor quality housing and/or face insecure tenancies. This creates further stress that someone on a middle income is less likely to face as well as health problems (caused by both the stress as well as damp, mould, poor heating).
So you are getting £18,500 a year.
Again, the vast majority of people claiming income related benefits are not receiving this much.
So for all the stresses of having a £40,000 a year job. All the training. All those certifications you had to take for example the LPC in law, the ACCA for accounting or maybe the highly technical CISSP for IT security.
All the extra hours, all the politics and trying to please your boss, slaving away to make your CEO rich.
Losing your health and your mind glued to a desk.
All the extra hours, all the politics and trying to please your boss, slaving away to make your CEO rich.
Losing your health and your mind glued to a desk.
And this is where you go wrong. Life expectancy of those on middle incomes is higher than those living in relative poverty/claiming benefits long-term.
Being in employment, especially professional employment, has a range of benefits. It also gives people a network of people, daily contact with others, which is incredibly important from a health perspective (both physical and mental health). It also gives people a purpose. Presumably these are careers people are interested in, and get at least some enjoyment doing, as they have worked and studied for several years.
Finally, even if someone is only better off by, say, 5k a year. That's still 5k that can be saved up, or used to get better quality housing, or pay for a couple of good holidays a year.
To be earning 40k a year you WILL BE WORKING 60+ Hours a week.
Not really.
In conclusion:
Your heart attack at 45 is worth an additional £3.10-£4.65 an hour over doing nothing.
Your heart attack at 45 is worth an additional £3.10-£4.65 an hour over doing nothing.
And, again, where is your evidence that a middle income person is more likely to die prematurely of a heart attack?
This is not a daily mail blame the poor post. I know those on benefits are not the problem most of them do want to work. I am just trying to highlight how the middle classes are being bled dry.
Most people in benefits are probably in work, just on low incomes.
Tax Credits, Housing Benefit/Local Housing Allowance, Employment and Support Allowance and Jobseekers Allowance can all be claimed in employment. Some you need to working under 16 hours (and looking for FT work) others working over 16 hours. Plus there's benefits such as Disability Living Allowance/Personal Independent Payment which aren't income based.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I believe in the benefits system, but you've highlighted a serious point here. I think is prefer to see benefits reduce over time so people don't get used to it.
You believe in reducing the income of the less well off in society, as living costs are rising? How noble. Plus I don't think he has highlighted a serious point here, or at least he ignores the huge health and social benefits that result from employment (and the often poor living conditions of those reliant on state benefits).
It's often said that the welfare state effectively penalises those who work FT on minimum wage, as they can end up worse off (or certainly no better off) that those who claim benefits and don't work. However, to suggest that those on middle incomes are so heavily penalised is absurd.
(edited 10 years ago)
I get £3,120 p.a. I don't think you can reduce that any further without making it impossible to survive. I think your calculations are a bit off because being based around JSA the individual still has £60 a week to live on no matter what other benefits they're entitled to. I was on incapacity benefits and was duly kicked off in the new medical assessments made by the tories and I have been planning to set up a business for a while so I continued with the idea- the job centre people did a funny thing - they said 'don't work 'til you are on enterprise allowance' - weird that.
I just don't think your assessment is fair as you don't find the average person on benefits gets the maximum amount.
I just don't think your assessment is fair as you don't find the average person on benefits gets the maximum amount.
I think anyone who says benefits claimants get too much, should actually try living on the average claim. Can safely say when I had to live on housing benefit and JSA, I was below the poverty line.
Whenever I see people walking into work in the morning, they honestly look as if they are walking to the gallows. But whenever I argue that the system is rigged so that only the Rothschilds and people like them ever truly "win", they defend the system that has enslaved them.
Slavery never went away. It got re-branded. There's more than enough for everyone, but apparently we have to "earn" our own living. Because being born doesn't make you worthy enough of life apparently. We're told that we are free to leave a job at any time but the government will make sure we starve to death if we do quit. The rich have spend millions like it's spare change and the rest of us have the majority of our life robbed from us, while struggling to put food on the table.
Slavery never went away. It got re-branded. There's more than enough for everyone, but apparently we have to "earn" our own living. Because being born doesn't make you worthy enough of life apparently. We're told that we are free to leave a job at any time but the government will make sure we starve to death if we do quit. The rich have spend millions like it's spare change and the rest of us have the majority of our life robbed from us, while struggling to put food on the table.
OP, you should be angry that people work their employees so hard with unpaid overtime to squeeze every last bit of profit out of them rather than attacking the already poor.
Frankly, I agree with your grim assessment. In real terms, of hours worked a lot of people on the lower middle income are probably working for barely minimum wage. Those lower simply require the government to step in and subsidize them.
Frankly, I agree with your grim assessment. In real terms, of hours worked a lot of people on the lower middle income are probably working for barely minimum wage. Those lower simply require the government to step in and subsidize them.
Original post by Arketec
I get £3,120 p.a. I don't think you can reduce that any further without making it impossible to survive. I think your calculations are a bit off because being based around JSA the individual still has £60 a week to live on no matter what other benefits they're entitled to. I was on incapacity benefits and was duly kicked off in the new medical assessments made by the tories and I have been planning to set up a business for a while so I continued with the idea- the job centre people did a funny thing - they said 'don't work 'til you are on enterprise allowance' - weird that.
I just don't think your assessment is fair as you don't find the average person on benefits gets the maximum amount.
I just don't think your assessment is fair as you don't find the average person on benefits gets the maximum amount.
Did you only get £3,120 per annum? Is that inclusive of free prescriptions, housing benefit and free council tax?
Original post by TheRageTrain
OP, you should be angry that people work their employees so hard with unpaid overtime to squeeze every last bit of profit out of them rather than attacking the already poor.
Frankly, I agree with your grim assessment. In real terms, of hours worked a lot of people on the lower middle income are probably working for barely minimum wage. Those lower simply require the government to step in and subsidize them.
Frankly, I agree with your grim assessment. In real terms, of hours worked a lot of people on the lower middle income are probably working for barely minimum wage. Those lower simply require the government to step in and subsidize them.
In paid overtime tends to only be for salaried staff. There's normally a contractual arrangement with salaried staff to cover that. From my own personal experience if say that most of that can be overcome with people working smarter, not longer.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Did you only get £3,120 per annum? Is that inclusive of free prescriptions, housing benefit and free council tax?
I live in Wales everyone gets free prescriptions, I live at home with my mum and she pays the council tax or if I did make a claim I don't remember. Yeah £60 a week of which some goes towards household bills. I spend about £30 a week on going out and tobacco. It's a pittance and as soon as I got on it I started planning my own business which will (hopefully) be up and running in 8 weeks.
Being unemployed is the hardest thing I've ever done.
From your working out the employed person has £200 a week more to live on that's 3 times as much as the person on benefits and because you worked out the maximum amount; the employed would have child benefits on top of all that increasing the difference. Not to mention the company paying for things like holidays etc. For example someone on benefits sitting around all day can barely afford tobacco whereas the highly paid employed are at restaurants paying for a meal with company expenses ......... and so the story goes on. Also you said the highly paid are earning below min wage?
Never mind the demoralising effect being on benefits has on you socially there is also the long term effects of feeling worthless because you can't find a job.
Think about it work makes you feel good unemployment makes you feel ****.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
In paid overtime tends to only be for salaried staff. There's normally a contractual arrangement with salaried staff to cover that. From my own personal experience if say that most of that can be overcome with people working smarter, not longer.
Correct, it can be. However sometimes it is not the fault of the person working. The shortfall sometimes comes from above, from people elsewhere in the pipeline, or from unreasonable deadlines set by people who have no experience in your field.
This happens a lot in the creative industry and a lot of people I know are worked to the bone for what appears to be a great salary, but hourly is pitiful.
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Gcse english revision
- Currently studying MSc Risk Analysis at KCL, AMA :)
- Need help with analysis in English Lit A Level
- Am I able to apply for a good uni? Will I be able to raise my grades?
- degree choice help
- english lit xmas carol analysis
- History a level struggling
- English Literature
- TSR Study Together - STEM vs Humanities - Tenth Session
- LSE vs KCL
- English lit A Level 2022 predictions
- EPQ title help - homosexuality in literature
- Bonn vs Oxford vs Cambridge vs UPenn Mathematics Masters
- How much prior stats is required for an Msc Stats?
- Life at Herts - Everything Apart from the Studying!
- Modern Studies Higher
- Are engineers glorified graphic designers?
- F1+F2 Scotland Edinburgh vs Glasgow
- History coursework help (please!!)
- University of Portsmouth Vs University of Hertfordshire Vs Bournemouth University
Latest
Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Even Europe’s far-right firebrands seem to sense Brexit is a disaster- The GuardianLast reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Sunak rejects offer of youth mobility scheme between EU and UKLast reply 2 weeks ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 3 weeks ago
TSR Big Discussion #1: What should be top priority to protect the environment?Last reply 3 weeks ago
Where do you stand on the political spectrum (8values)? – Take a quiz here!Last reply 3 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 3 weeks ago
No progress made on half of UK government’s levelling-up targetsLast reply 3 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Even Europe’s far-right firebrands seem to sense Brexit is a disaster- The GuardianLast reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 5 days ago
Sunak rejects offer of youth mobility scheme between EU and UKLast reply 2 weeks ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 3 weeks ago
TSR Big Discussion #1: What should be top priority to protect the environment?Last reply 3 weeks ago
Where do you stand on the political spectrum (8values)? – Take a quiz here!Last reply 3 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 3 weeks ago
No progress made on half of UK government’s levelling-up targetsLast reply 3 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?
