The Daily Mail and its views on students being 'shunned' by medical schools...

Just wondered if anyone had read this article and had any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394302/770-straight-students-t-place-medical-school.html

Couldn't help but enjoy this person's comment:
I was recently in hospital for a month and the team of young doctors that treated me all spoke with a posh accent. It seems that medical schools have elitist agendas that turn away people from poorer backgrounds, which is disgraceful. Just because someone is from a working class family doesn't make them less intelligent.

Reply 1

username2488767

20

This article is what I've been saying for two years! Wow I can't believe I actually just agreed with the Daily Mail *shudders*. I have 3 friends, all of whom are predicted at least AAA (one A*AAA) and all 3 have been rejected from everywhere. It's not fair that there are so few places available when there are people who are willing and more than capable to do the job.

Reply 2

Cherub012

5

Original post by imedic

Just wondered if anyone had read this article and had any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394302/770-straight-students-t-place-medical-school.html

Couldn't help but enjoy this person's comment:
I was recently in hospital for a month and the team of young doctors that treated me all spoke with a posh accent. It seems that medical schools have elitist agendas that turn away people from poorer backgrounds, which is disgraceful. Just because someone is from a working class family doesn't make them less intelligent.

There's no evidence of this "elitist agenda". This isn't the US. Posh people can afford a better education, hence why more of them get in.

Reply 3

stoyfan

20

Original post by imedic

Just wondered if anyone had read this article and had any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394302/770-straight-students-t-place-medical-school.html

Couldn't help but enjoy this person's comment:
I was recently in hospital for a month and the team of young doctors that treated me all spoke with a posh accent. It seems that medical schools have elitist agendas that turn away people from poorer backgrounds, which is disgraceful. Just because someone is from a working class family doesn't make them less intelligent.

This is what I don't get with the Dailymail commenters. Believe it or not, there is lots of competition over places in uni for medical courses.

But no, they are quick to point out that everyone is against them and that they are prejudiced group, by using the most rediculous examples.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 4

bex.anne

15

Original post by greghayes

This article is what I've been saying for two years! Wow I can't believe I actually just agreed with the Daily Mail *shudders*. I have 3 friends, all of whom are predicted at least AAA (one A*AAA) and all 3 have been rejected from everywhere. It's not fair that there are so few places available when there are people who are willing and more than capable to do the job.

Everyone who applies to medical school will have at least AAA predictions. And 60% of applicants get rejected first time. So no, it probably isn't just because they're working class. There are so many things you need to take into account when applying to med school, GCSE's. entry exams, volunteering, work experience, applying to your strengths to see which med schools is most likely to accept you, and then actually going to interview and seeing if you are what the university wants. I don't think there is an elitist agenda. Plenty of working class people get in every year(like myself), as do private school people.

Reply 5

ax12

20

There are only a certain number of students that medical schools can take. This is limited by the government, but also by the ability of the medical school to train students. When I am on placement, there are around 30 of us in one specialty at any given time. We have to share a set number of consultants and attend their ward rounds and clinics. There is only a set number of students that can be accommodated in this system. There are also only a certain number of foundation jobs, which are not being recruited for from abroad.

From my experience at medical school, there do seem to be a relatively higher number of students from a more privileged background (having gone to grammar/private schools etc), but this isn't necessarily due to the medical schools themselves, especially as they don't get told what school you are applying from. There is also a great push from a lot of medical schools to support people from widening participation backgrounds to attend, as they might not get the support from their school or community to do so.

At the end of the day, it is a notoriously competitive subject. There are many people who get the grades who would do very well, and also those who don't get AAA who could succeed and become great doctors.

...

Original post by imedic

Just wondered if anyone had read this article and had any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394302/770-straight-students-t-place-medical-school.html

Couldn't help but enjoy this person's comment:
I was recently in hospital for a month and the team of young doctors that treated me all spoke with a posh accent. It seems that medical schools have elitist agendas that turn away people from poorer backgrounds, which is disgraceful. Just because someone is from a working class family doesn't make them less intelligent.

Original post by greghayes

This article is what I've been saying for two years! Wow I can't believe I actually just agreed with the Daily Mail *shudders*. I have 3 friends, all of whom are predicted at least AAA (one A*AAA) and all 3 have been rejected from everywhere. It's not fair that there are so few places available when there are people who are willing and more than capable to do the job.

Unfortunately the British education system is based upon grades, not intelligence. AAA is the bare minimum of grades. What did they study? Were they offered interviews? Medicine is competitive.

Also, I have a 'posh accent' yet I did not go to private school. Many of my friends did go to private school and have 'normal accents'. Believe not, 'poor' people can also be taught how to speak in correct English.

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Reply 8

username2488767

20

Ok, I don't actually agree with the whole "being posh means you'll get a place" thing, I agree more with the fact that we should be training more UK doctors as there are so many people that have the grades but are being turned away. We come from a middle-class area and our college has, for about 3 years recently, been voted the best 6th form college in England. My friends all got very good grades at GCSE (all minimum 7 A*s and the rest As) and got AAA in their AS years. They failed at the selection stage, not even getting interviews mainly, because even though they got brilliant grades and have excellent personal statements and work experience, there will always be someone better than them.

Reply 9

mojojojo101

17

I don't really understand why the ire of the article seems to be aimed at medical schools.

I am sure, provided they had the funding and the facilities to do so most medical schools would love to have more students coming through the door.

However as ax12 points out there are a number of choke points in doctor trainin that realistically medical schools can't do a lot about.

The government, via the NHS, should get a lot more blame than they do here.

Reply 10

imedic

OP

6

Original post by stoyfan

Believe it or not, there is lots of competition over places in uni for medical courses.

Also, you observation that a few doctors speak in a posh accent doesn't really support your point that medical school have elitist agendas.

I didn't phrase the initial post very well. What I meant was that its laughable that people still think that because you're well spoken that you must be 'rich' or 'elitist'.

Reply 11

werakepa

"despite the fact overseas staff are four times more likely to be struck off for blunders than British counterparts" classic Daily Mail: 'UK workers are good, foreign ones are bad' is what they are saying here :/

Reply 12

returnmigrant

21

Typical inflammatory Dail Mail stuff.

All Med schools look at more than 'top grades' - a) because the GMC tells them they have to and b) because predicted grades are mostly totally unreliable fantasy and therefore no way to pick future doctors.

Reply 13

the bear

20

what happens is that the lower-class entrants soon pick up a well-spoken professional voice. when they are off duty they talk like the cast of Layer Cake or Trainspotting.

Reply 14

stoyfan

20

Original post by imedic

I didn't phrase the initial post very well. What I meant was that its laughable that people still think that because you're well spoken that you must be 'rich' or 'elitist'.

Sorry for misunderstanding your post. I've corrected mine.

Original post by imedic

Just wondered if anyone had read this article and had any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394302/770-straight-students-t-place-medical-school.html

Couldn't help but enjoy this person's comment:
I was recently in hospital for a month and the team of young doctors that treated me all spoke with a posh accent. It seems that medical schools have elitist agendas that turn away people from poorer backgrounds, which is disgraceful. Just because someone is from a working class family doesn't make them less intelligent.

It's funny how they don't account for entrance exams, work experience, meeting offers, and you know, everything else that makes up an application apart from grades.

Reply 16

Pride

21

I can give you 2 reasons why:

1) Medicine is massively over-subscribed. Therefore, medical schools have a number of hurdles to help cut down the numbers they have to interview and choose from. The government control the number of places in medical school in the UK. But training medical students is very expensive, so they won't increase the numbers enough to meet the demand. They would rather recruit from abroad.

2) Parents pay private schools to get their children into the most competitive courses. Therefore private schools and the grammar schools in the wealthiest areas tend to produce the most competitive medicine applicants. I noticed this in my med school (Southampton). In 1st year, I could often tell who was privately educated just by their confidence in public speaking and their competitiveness. Of course these are generalisations. In my sixth from (a grammar school sixth form), we were given a lot of support and contacts for work experience, but still nowhere near the kind of rigorous training you get in a good private school.

Reply 17

username1044510

12

DM is over simplifying the issue, but it is still an issue.

Fundamentally, you can have many students achieving the required grades, obviously, but the difference lies in the opportunities.

Do you know someone that can make obtaining work experience easier?

Does your family have money to send you on courses?

Does your family live in an area that has schools with a very good reputation and great resources to enable their students?

Do you need a tutor?

Yes, you'll hear of anecdotal stories of "working class" students and blah blah blah, but you'll find the widening participation doesn't qualify someone just because they are from a working class family; it is about the missed opportunities.

That's why every year (and I can't remember the percentage) but it is an overwhelming majority of students come from an underwhelming number of schools that do medicine.

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Reply 18

returnmigrant

21

Those from private schools tend to be more confident, are more likely to have inflated predicted grades and are more likely to have a 'coached' personal statement and/or UKCAT/BMAT score. Therefore their applications score higher, and they are therefore more likely to get to interview, and once there, tend to perform better. It really is that simple (and that unfair).