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If life is the entrance exam for heaven in your religion ..

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Original post by satisfactionatlast
Of course I don't! No one knows! Haven't you being paying attention?


Oh, I've been paying attention, it's just that you haven't been providing satisfactory answers. You're making wild, illogical claims about God's nature and how he operates and as soon as someone challenges that you're resorting to the intellectual equivalent of running away: throwing cop-outs arounds like "no one can understand God". I'm sorry, but that's a non-answer and there's no real use in having a debate with someone like that because they can use it to justify absolutely anything, no matter how illogical. Can God make 1+1 = 3? "Sure, Allah knows best". Can God exist and not exist at the same time? "Sure, Allah knows best" etc etc.

It's a totally useless way of approaching theological debate and begs the question how you can comprehend and explain some of God's nature and characteristics, but say that the parts that are illogical cannot be comprehended? Double standards and rather convenient, don't you think?

Let me throw your definition of a test back at you. How are to we get tested if we knew exactly how God operates? There's no point in being tested then, is there?


Exactly, there isn't. A test, by its very definition must be based on prior uncertainty about the outcome. And as God knows with certainty everything that will happen beforehand there is no doubt and therefore no test.

i.e. if students knew exactly what questions the teacher would ask, would it be fair for them to get an A? No. It's the same with faith and religion. Because we don't know or can't explain how God tests people, we need to take it up to faith, and our end results (actions derived by teachings of religion) is exactly how we get rewarded with either Heaven/Hell. Oh and Allah does know best. Always. :smile:


You still haven't shown how an omniscient being can test someone, just reiterating how fallacious it is. You're going about the whole process the wrong way: assuming the conclusion is correct and then trying (unsuccessfully) to make the premise fit when it should be precisely the reverse. One should first examine the premise (God can test people) and then look at how that is logically impossible.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by satisfactionatlast
Sigh. It's like you people are coming up with literally anything just for the sake of arguing. This is the 21st century. I don't think there's any person in this world who doesn't know or heard of Islam.


Hearing of a religion is not the same as really knowing anything about it. Why is Islam any different to other faiths? Most Christians will have never researched any other faith, most Muslims will have never researched any other faith, most Jews will never have researched any other faith etc etc. So why do you think Islam, out of all the religions that exist, is going to make people read about it and obtain more in depth knowledge?

Furthermore, before you attack me with another pointless question, those people who have never heard of Islam obviously are not going to be judged.


No one is ever going to be judged by a celestial dictator because there is no such thing as hell or Judgement Day. Both concepts are just as absurd and as illogical as life being an examination.

Also, you're associating tests with something literal like actual tests in schools and universities. Tests can be in the form of abstract things you know. I mean, haven't you watched movies where the hero at the end gets rewarded for something because he 'passed the test' even though he didn't even know he was being tested?


The test you've described here is absolutely no different. If the person testing the hero was all-knowing and knew the hero's actions in advance then the test would be nullified. Tests only work when the examiner is not omniscient.

The entire concept of believing in a God is a test in itself, and whether you choose to believe it or not, that is the crux of the test itself: the belief. Believing in something you can't see or explain is the ultimate test. You just feel it. You feel that there is a greater force out there, and that force, for religious people, is God. Does that make sense?


I have already and thoroughly picked apart your claim that an all-knowing deity can test people. Second, belief cannot be faked, your point there that you "just feel it" suggests it's automatic and therefore not really something you decided to do or that you achieved. Furthermore, your own Quran says that Allah deliberately stops people from being able to believe in Islam..
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Hearing of a religion is not the same as really knowing anything about it. Why is Islam any different to other faiths? Most Christians will have never researched any other faith, most Muslims will have never researched any other faith, most Jews will never have researched any other faith etc etc. So why do you think Islam, out of all the religions that exist, is going to make people read about it and obtain more in depth knowledge?



No one is ever going to be judged by a celestial dictator because there is no such thing as hell or Judgement Day. Both concepts are just as absurd and as illogical as life being an examination.



The test here you'v described is absolutely no different. If the person testing the hero was all-knowing and knew the hero's actions in advance then the test would be nullified. Tests only work when the examiner is not omniscient.



I have already and thoroughly picked apart your claim that an all-knowing deity can test people. Second, belief cannot be faked, your point there that you "just feel it" suggests it's automatic and therefore not really something you decided to do or achieved. Furthermore, your own Quran says that Allah deliberately stops people from being able to believe in Islam..


I think fair to say this brother has given up on the debate, If he's sensible he'll take some time to be critical about Islam.

There's just so many thing wrong with the religious belief system that we could be here for days picking off an almost infinite number of arguments for why none of it makes logical sense.
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
There's so many things wrong with the atheist belief system.


Please explain?
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
There's so many things wrong with the atheist belief system.


What exactly is the atheist belief system? And what are its faults?
Original post by The_Mediocre_One

There's just so many thing wrong with the religious belief system that we could be here for days picking off an almost infinite number of arguments for why none of it makes logical sense.


How does 0+0=1?
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
How does 0+0=1?


What on earth are you talking about?

If this is in relationship to the formation of the universe then you better be able to explain how God came into creation since I also have the question of 0+0=1?
Original post by The_Mediocre_One
What on earth are you talking about?

If this is in relationship to the formation of the universe then you better be able to explain how God came into creation since I also have the question of 0+0=1?


No let's not swing this on me by talking about God, I'm talking about what you believe, you believe there's no God hence how do YOU think the universe began, YOU must think 0+0=1, right?
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
you believe there's no God hence how do YOU think the universe began,


Most atheists would answer that with the simple and obvious truth: we have no idea. I certainly would.

There is no valid reason, in the educated twenty-first century, to heap an extra layer of unlikelihood (by inventing a deity) onto an already murky situation.

Cast aside the comfortable shackles of your indoctrinated childhood and embrace doubt!
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
No let's not swing this on me by talking about God, I'm talking about you believe, you believe there's no God hence how do YOU think the universe began, YOU must think 0+0=1, right?


When you say how the universe began I'll assume you mean before the big bang since we have a very strong scientific understanding of how it expanded after the big bang.

Firstly just because I don't have the answer to what was there before the big bang gives no credence to a God.

Trying to equate believing 0+0=1 as the same as not having an explanation for the universe is a poor strawman argument which is constantly used by religious people when debating.

The burden of proof is actually on you to prove the existence of God rather than on me to prove he doesn't since there is no evidence he does exist.

So I'll ask you again what proof do you have for God existing? Who created him? And if he's always existed then why can't the energy required to create the universe have existed in a state before the big bang?
Original post by The_Mediocre_One
When you say how the universe began I'll assume you mean before the big bang since we have a very strong scientific understanding of how it expanded after the big bang.

Firstly just because I don't have the answer to what was there before the big bang gives no credence to a God.

Trying to equate believing 0+0=1 as the same as not having an explanation for the universe is a poor strawman argument which is constantly used by religious people when debating.

The burden of proof is actually on you to prove the existence of God rather than on me to prove he doesn't since there is no evidence he does exist.

So I'll ask you again what proof do you have for God existing? Who created him? And if he's always existed then why can't the energy required to create the universe have existed in a state before the big bang?


You haven't answered my question. How can the universe come into existence out of nothing (0=1)? I want your explanation.
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
You haven't answered my question. How can the universe come into existence out of nothing (0=1)? I want your explanation.


I just said Science is unable to explain it at the moment.

I also highlighted the logical fallacies you are applying to this entire situation. I also made it clear that the burden of proof is on you to explain how God came into existence, how was Allah created? answer that.
Reply 72
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
No let's not swing this on me by talking about God, I'm talking about what you believe, you believe there's no God hence how do YOU think the universe began, YOU must think 0+0=1, right?

Wrong. Atheism makes no claims, it just says that the claim that a god or gods exist is not accepted, as it has not presented credible evidence.
Reply 73
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
You haven't answered my question. How can the universe come into existence out of nothing (0=1)? I want your explanation.

The lack of a complete understanding or explanation does not imply a god, does it?!

There are many things that were attributed to a god or gods, but that are now completely explained by science. From experience, I expect that science will continue to expand what it explains, and your god of the gaps to get painted into a corner.
I used to be an atheist but then I was shaken to the core by an argument that actually really did convince me.

Basically we are creating ever more complex artificial realities/ simulations in a universe of 2 trillion galaxies with the abundance of suns and planets intelligent there probably are many cases of intelligent life heck if we make it into the next few hundred years chances are we will create artificial realities indistinguishable from this one with intelligent conscious au that believe they are in the real reality.

Which raises the question how do we know we are not in the computer simulation?

He answer is we don't and if you think it through for a bit you will realise we very probably aren't in an artificial reality.

Which would mean this reality had programmers/ a programmer e.g. A creator.

Of course this is a far cry away from the Judaic abrahamic God etc their is no reason to believe the programmers are even aware of our existence let alone observing us individually and making an after life etc.

So I don't get to the perfectijbate god but we very like do have a creator of our reality.
Original post by Luke7456
I used to be an atheist but then I was shaken to the core by an argument that actually really did convince me.

Basically we are creating ever more complex artificial realities/ simulations in a universe of 2 trillion galaxies with the abundance of suns and planets intelligent there probably are many cases of intelligent life heck if we make it into the next few hundred years chances are we will create artificial realities indistinguishable from this one with intelligent conscious au that believe they are in the real reality.

Which raises the question how do we know we are not in the computer simulation?

He answer is we don't and if you think it through for a bit you will realise we very probably aren't in an artificial reality.

Which would mean this reality had programmers/ a programmer e.g. A creator.

Of course this is a far cry away from the Judaic abrahamic God etc their is no reason to believe the programmers are even aware of our existence let alone observing us individually and making an after life etc.

So I don't get to the perfectijbate god but we very like do have a creator of our reality.


It's something that's been hypothesised however until there's any observable evidence for it we can't assume it to be true.

The fact that we may be able to crest such simulations also doesn't inherently mean that we ourselves are in a simulation or have been created by a supreme being.
Original post by ABeingOnEarth
You haven't answered my question. How can the universe come into existence out of nothing (0=1)? I want your explanation.


Please show me where atheism states the universe came from nothing?

Out of interest, what did your god create the universe from?
Reply 77
Original post by satisfactionatlast
Of course I did. The second opinion which is not popular and if you read it carefully, was refuted (obviously scholars are going to think differently). Interpreting the Quran is not an easy task, and you need both Quran + Hadiths to do that as they go hand in hand

Thank you for your answers - it helps to have more than one view for a discussion.

Quotes from your holy book demonstrate that it was written by man, not by some being that could write clearly, concisely and unambiguously. The fact that Islamic beard-strokers (aka self-appointed guessers) disagree on many details illustrates this.

Why is interpreting the Quran 'not an easy task'? Is that another part of the test?

If the mentally ill are here to test others, how do they get tested? The answer appears to be that Islam doesn't know, so will fall-back to the "we can't comprehend our god's thinking". That's another way that religions try to end questioning of their obvious faults.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Please show me where atheism states the universe came from nothing?

Out of interest, what did your god create the universe from?


Enlighten me, what does atheism state about the creation of the universe? Oh wait, they don't believe in creation.
Original post by The_Mediocre_One
It's something that's been hypothesised however until there's any observable evidence for it we can't assume it to be true.

The fact that we may be able to crest such simulations also doesn't inherently mean that we ourselves are in a simulation or have been created by a supreme being.


Well I'm not advocating a supreme being I mean sure to us they would be all powerful as they could just change the code but they would likely be flawed just like us.

I don't know how one could ever proof that I think it's just something which highly likely to be the case based on probability.

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