U.K. must take back U.K. born isis fighters. Should we?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/17/trump-is-right-uk-must-take-back-isis-fighters-ex-british-army-chief.
Basically there are 800 isis fighters who happened to be born in Europe, I imagine at least a hundred of these are ‘British’. There are also suspected hundreds of isis members that have already returned to the U.K.
The UK’s home sectretary (himself a Pakistan Muslim) has stated that heck would prevent the turn of some of these isis detainees from returning to U.K. Soil.
A leading ‘counter terrorism expert’ has said that not allowing isis members to return will fuel isis’s narrative and lead to more isis recruits.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/16/shamima-begum-isis-extremism-expert-criticises-sajid-javid
Do you think we should let these fighters back on the UK to face trial? If so why/ why not?
Basically there are 800 isis fighters who happened to be born in Europe, I imagine at least a hundred of these are ‘British’. There are also suspected hundreds of isis members that have already returned to the U.K.
The UK’s home sectretary (himself a Pakistan Muslim) has stated that heck would prevent the turn of some of these isis detainees from returning to U.K. Soil.
A leading ‘counter terrorism expert’ has said that not allowing isis members to return will fuel isis’s narrative and lead to more isis recruits.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/16/shamima-begum-isis-extremism-expert-criticises-sajid-javid
Do you think we should let these fighters back on the UK to face trial? If so why/ why not?
Scroll to see replies
I think this case, as with much of western politics is a tragedy and is being framed in the most stupid way possible.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
I would prefer to see these people hung or killed in other ways
Original post by Davij038
I think this case, as with much of western politics is a tragedy and is being framed in the most stupid way possible.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
Why do you have to smear everyone who doesn't want them back as some sort of white supremacist/extremist? Would you be ok with them staying in your house?
Original post by Davij038
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
"Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government"
According to who? I know I wouldn't and any Muslim I speak to would say the same.
uk mast accept british citizens, isis made lots of fault, isis create better option for oil and destroy few countries. please don't support isis,
Original post by jameswhughes
Why do you have to smear everyone who doesn't want them back as some sort of white supremacist/extremist? Would you be ok with them staying in your house?
No that’s my own position.
Most people who are probably liberals of some sort want to accept ‘good’ immigrants but not ‘bad’ ones as if it was a pick and choosing exercise, which it isn’t because if situations among others like this.
The left thinks these people are as British as I am, my own view is that these people are British only in a legalistic sense and as such are responsible for them but should never have taken them or their families in the first place. This has only been an ‘extreme position’ in the last thirty years ago in the west and would be seen as blatantly obvious anywhere else in the world today- eg China
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by AperfectBalance
I would prefer to see these people hung or killed in other ways
Wishing on someone's death is never morally righteous, even if it is for groups as detested as ISIS. Who knows, although unlikely, they may repent their grotesque ways.
Original post by Parvus et Magnus
Wishing on someone's death is never morally righteous, even if it is for groups as detested as ISIS. Who knows, although unlikely, they may repent their grotesque ways.
Since when does righteousness have anything to do with protecting the nation from murder on the streets?
Original post by Wōden
"Oh dear! The transport ship that was bringing all the Jihadis back to the UK, has accidently struck an iceberg and sunk. No survivors."
Oof, I hope no Mediterranean polar bears were on that iceberg
Original post by Notoriety
Since when does righteousness have anything to do with protecting the nation from murder on the streets?
In his/her statement "I would prefer to see these people hung or killed in other ways". Wanting them to stay put abroad, yes. Wanting them to die...maybe not so. 'Two wrongs does not make a right'.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Davij038
I think this case, as with much of western politics is a tragedy and is being framed in the most stupid way possible.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
- We should not have accepted these people into the U.K. anyway. Even if they weren’t isis they would not be of our own stock and culture anyway. Sajid Javid may be genuine in his views - but I suspect he is virtue signalling ‘look I’m a Pakistani Muslim and I don’t want them back!’) , there also political ramifications in play here and he knows this will play well to conservative membership- just like how conservatives go nuts when they see a right wing black person (oh it’s so good like you’re not like the others!)
Regardless, the vast majority of Muslims would suppport leniency from the British government, and most white brits will be screaming for their blood. Incidentally, suppose many young white people went abroad to fight for a white supremacist movement you would see the reverse. This is simply self- preservation.
- as to the legality of it, we of course should legally take back these people and give them a fair British trial. But as per the above we should know that this:
-is massively unpopular
-endangers the public significantly
- will probably lead to more negative changes to our way of life
-will further lead to the inevitable backlash of the Alt Right
of course you could also just kill them as I believe some in government have floated, this will also have incredibly dire repurcussions.
The vast majority of Muslims I know and I'm sure many others would not support leniency from the government. Only because they supposedly share a similar religion does not mean that they would support each other's actions. The majority of British Muslims would not want to associate themselves with murder, and it is wrong to suggest that Sajid Javid's view is an anomaly.
Original post by Parvus et Magnus
Wishing on someone's death is never morally righteous, even if it is for groups as detested as ISIS. Who knows, although unlikely, they may repent their grotesque ways.
Yes, yes it is, It is simply self defence if someone tried to kill me and I defended myself that would be morally just, if someone tried to attack my country and In defence I killed tem that is just.
Original post by AperfectBalance
Yes, yes it is, It is simply self defence if someone tried to kill me and I defended myself that would be morally just, if someone tried to attack my country and In defence I killed tem that is just.
There is a difference between active killing in self defence, where you would have no choice but to resort to murder, and wishing that someone would be hung or killed, even if it is your enemy. Self defence does not equate to a wish for death.
If you think ISIS will not spin another narrative to whip up extremists regardless, even if you invite these ISIS fighters/members back onto UK soil with smiles, flowers and confetti, you are incredibly naive. These people need to be detained indefinitely until they are deemed safe to be re-integrated into society. The legal punishments that are prescribed are currently insufficient, and so putting them on trial and obtaining a conviction will not yield a satisfactory outcome nor ensure that they are de-radicalised by the time they are released. It is not a foregone conclusion that we should give them a "fair British trial".
There are, of course, human rights implications, but the people who are the first to scream about human rights often 1) wrongly assume that human rights are absolute and will never bend to or accommodate competing interests (the whole point of the criminal justice system is to forfeit or curtail certain rights (liberty, movement, speech, etc) when the individual in question behaves in an anti-social manner); and 2) fail to identify the philosophical basis they're using to call a 'right' a right. An argument that relies on and repeats moral platitudes without more (e.g. we should not sentence them to death because killing is immoral) begs the question.
There are, of course, human rights implications, but the people who are the first to scream about human rights often 1) wrongly assume that human rights are absolute and will never bend to or accommodate competing interests (the whole point of the criminal justice system is to forfeit or curtail certain rights (liberty, movement, speech, etc) when the individual in question behaves in an anti-social manner); and 2) fail to identify the philosophical basis they're using to call a 'right' a right. An argument that relies on and repeats moral platitudes without more (e.g. we should not sentence them to death because killing is immoral) begs the question.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Parvus et Magnus
The vast majority of Muslims I know and I'm sure many others would not support leniency from the government. Only because they supposedly share a similar religion does not mean that they would support each other's actions. The majority of British Muslims would not want to associate themselves with murder, and it is wrong to suggest that Sajid Javid's view is an anomaly.
No its not for that reason, they might detest isis. The reason they would be for leniency would be because it’s liklry to be there friends and family involved.
Original post by Davij038
No its not for that reason, they might detest isis. The reason they would be for leniency would be because it’s liklry to be there friends and family involved.
'The vast majority of Muslims would support leniency from the British government'.
You may be right in noting that those with family in ISIS may be disillusioned by their emotions and may start justifying their acts based on irrational feelings of family love, but the vast majority of Muslims do not have friends and family involved in the fight. They can dissociate themselves from emotional irrationality and are likely to support punishment, which in this case, is disallowing their return to the UK.
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